Passion Business Podcast – Episode 42: Heather Markel | Full Time Travel : Turning a Career Break into a Way of Life

 

 Welcome to the passion business podcast. The podcast for free spirits with a big idea who want to turn their passion into a business? I'm Anke Herrmann and I'm your host.

My guest today is a marketing agency founder, podcaster. Musician. He runs a podcast launch and production agency based in San Diego and has an international team that helps business coaches, consultants, and thought leaders use done for you podcasting to attract an audience and become micro famous. He's the author of micro famous and currently hosts the micro famous podcast.  Welcome. Matt Johnson.  

Hello and welcome Matt. I'm excited to have you here. 

Anke, I'm so excited to be here.

Fabulous. Well, let's just dive straight in. Let, why don't you let people know where you based and where you're from and what's your business. Okay, well, based in San Diego, although I'm not originally from here, I'm from the Midwest and, in the States and, from the land of cold and snow.

And so I'm very much enjoying living out in San Diego, but, basically what I do is I help thought leaders launch and produce podcasts. So we work with a lot of business coaches and consultants and speaker, author types. And, but five years ago, I was just some dude working in the marketing agency, working for somebody else.

and he had the, the idea to kind of promote me into business development. And his idea was. We're going to do all these Google Hangouts with these people that we have, you know, strategic relationships with. And so I started hosting these live video events with big people in the real estate space, because that's where most of the clients were of that agency.

And I got a chance to just hang out with these people and ask them good questions. And it turns out my background from low many years ago, back in real estate came in handy because I had read all the books and I knew who the coaches were and stuff like that. So I was just able to ask good questions. So those, those Google Hangouts went well to the point where one of the people I was co-hosting them with just called me up one day and said, Hey, man, I'd love to start a podcast.

And it's funny because, because I was thinking about pitching him the same idea. I was going to call him like the next week. So it was good timing. And that show ended up doing really well. I still co-host that to this day, it's called real estate. Uncensored has like a million and a half downloads. And, essentially made, took me from being just a, nobody that worked inside a marketing agency to speaking at industry events and being kind of micro famous in that space in about 18 months.

And so I watched that, that transformation, like with my own eyes and, and lived through that. And then that kind of led to. People asking me like, Hey, how are you doing this? How are you hosting multiple podcasts? And like, I ended up in like four different businesses. I was a partner in coaching consulting business, all this stuff.

Anyway, point being, I got sucked into being an agency owner. So that was never my intention. I was doing like three or four other things. I was going to do coaching consulting. I was going to speak in real estate. I was going to be in real estate, happy as a clam for the rest of my life. And then I got pulled into starting and launching podcasts and producing them.

And now we produce a bunch of shows and that's my sole focus. So I run the agency and about. Three to four hours a week, which leaves me the time to still do the stuff that I'm passionate about. And, you know, like, you can see on video, I'm surrounded by all the musical instruments and stuff. So I still get to make music and work on that in my off hours.

Cause I have a business that I can run and just a few hours a week. Ooh, that sounds like heaven, heaven, but it's not bad. I love, I love how. How it sort of naturally evolved, you know, out of basically being open, exploring and, and, following the path in front of you a little bit. Like, that's what it sounds like, doesn't it?

Yeah. A little bit, you know, I got off of that path quite a bit. Yeah. I mentioned that I was in a few different businesses and, and like when I came out of, so I came out of an agency that sells one thing. Pretty much to one type of person. And I saw the beauty in the simplicity in that model. And I saw how my mentor scaled that up to where they have 500 clients just paying them monthly recurring fees.

And, but when I got into that space, I got tempted and I got drawn off course because I was good enough at what I did that I started to get other opportunities and they all sounded cool. And they were all with these amazing people that I wanted to work with. And so I said yes to way too much stuff.

You know, I was in like, I was in two different coaching consulting companies. I was in a, like a content training material, production business. And then I ended up in a business to take podcasting into the financial services space. and I looked up one day and realized that like, every time I would have a meeting with my partners, I would walk away with a mile long to-do list of stuff that had to be done before the next meeting.

And they would not, and I'm like, well, this, this can't be. But what I really realized is that. I, I had made like my first huge mistake in business, which I tried to do this thing where I thought I was focusing by being in like four different things. But they were all in one industry because my idea was like, if you were any type of person and you came across me, if you bought anything, I made a cutoff of it.

That was my idea at the time of being focused. And then I just, I woke up one day and realized, this is, this is not focused selling. One thing to one type of person is focused and, So when I made that decision to kind of get back on that track and I made that my goal that's when I started to realize, okay, well that means I need to get out of this.

I need to get out of this, get out of this. And, and then I'm like, well, okay, well, if I'm going to get all out of all that stuff, like, what am I going to focus on? Well, I'm going to focus on the thing where I have a hundred percent ownership and I get a hundred percent of the reward when it goes well.

So why do I not just dive into the podcast production and make that my, my sole thing. So just having that, that goal, you know, we talked about before. We hit record, just kind of knowing where you want to end up. You don't know exactly how to get there, but just knowing where you want to end up. That's where I wanted to end up.

I wanted to have one thing to sell the one type of a person. And that helped clarify a lot. Yeah. I love, I love how I think a lot of listeners can resonate because I was giggling. It's like, Oh yeah. You know, it's like when the sort of the multi passionate. People, you know, when you love a lot of things and you're good at a lot of stuff.

So it's so tempting, you know, to take on this and take on that. And, and when you easily get excited about stuff about new projects and creating something new, but yeah. You build yourself a hamster wheel. Yes. That's exactly what it is. you know, I w I was getting, cause I, I do a fair bit of podcast interviews in different spaces and I got the opportunity to go on a podcast.

That's run by another agency owner and we were set to do a pre-interview call and she couldn't make it. So she sent her next in command and the person said like, Oh, they, you know, they weren't able to show up, you know, like she had to put out some fires to put out, you know, how it is and I'm thinking, okay, No, no, I really don't.

I don't, but there's a reason for that, which is because we're so focused on like doing one thing for one type of person, we're able to put a lot of work into. Having really good systems where we do the same things over and over again. And because of that, we're able to attract and retain really good people and they know exactly what they need to do each week.

They know exactly what numbers they're responsible to hit, and we've encountered most of those problems before and we can solve them once and for all. so like when, when are all, most of our clients podcasts, their shows launch on Thursday. When I used to wake up on a Thursday morning, that was a stress day.

Hmm. 

Right because something was always going wrong in the early days when we were doing a whole bunch of different stuff for different people. The more that I focused and narrowed down now, I barely know when it's Thursday and I wake up. I like, I have so many other calls booked. I don't even think about the client launches anymore because I know my staff has it, that only came as a result of us getting focused and super clear and doing one thing over and over again.

And I think that, People that are like multi-passionate and creative. If you never experienced what that's like to have things being done for clients that you don't have to worry about, you don't realize how much freedom and how much creativity that opens up. Whereas if you're doing all these different things, it almost it's technically creative, but you're always in panic mode. 

So it almost like shuts the creative part of your brain down. 

Oh, this is gold right there. Like that's going to be the title because actually it's funny. I was speaking to somebody on, on a, on a, on a workshop yesterday about, and she was talking about niching down and how the narrow, that niches and how like this, the more precise you can define what you do for what kind of person that, that, that actually opens up.

All the opportunities for your business and people have so much resistance and I can understand it because I was kind of like, you know, for a very long time, that idea of like, no, I don't want to like, get this goal or that goal. And, but I love how you put that at actually when you know that this is taken care of.

And not that that takes over then all of a sudden you're free to create. Ooh. Yeah. Well, I mean the book, the book wouldn't exist, right? Somebody like there was a time starting like January of last year when I stopped booking any appointments in the afternoon. And that book wouldn't exist. If I hadn't been able to do that, there's no way I could have written the book in the gaps between calls or on the evenings and weekends.

I I've got, you know, like I've got chronic fatigue and adrenal fatigue and like I've dealt with energy levels for years. I don't have 10 to 12 hours of my best work in me every day for any long stretch of time. And so I had to build the business in such a way that I wake up and I know I've got about four hours of.

Labor intensive stuff. And then I completely unplugged. And then everything else after that is optional, which means it could be a day where I spend the rest of the afternoon taking a walk on the beach. Or maybe it's a day where I spend the afternoon working on music and I completely unplugged from the business, you know, for awhile there, it was me working on the content for the book.

And I spent an, you know, 60 to 90 minutes in a Starbucks writing, writing the book. Right. But none of that would've happened if I hadn't narrowed my focus and gotten the business to the point where it ran fairly smoothly. And, and yeah, I just, I just realized that. Like when I was in that, in the panic mode, when I was on that hamster wheel of doing a whole bunch of different things for clients, I didn't have the mental and emotional space even think about music.

And there was, there was five years where I chased the dream as a pro musician. Like I, I have played the drums since I was two years old. It is in, is baked into the fabric of my being, to play music and being on the hamster wheel of business, completely shut that area of my life down for three years until I got the business straightened out.

so yeah, like I, I think there's probably a lot of creatives out there that you think you're being creative in the business and it's actually shutting down is keeping you from being creative and the things you're actually really passionate about. That's so true. That's so true. yeah. couldn't, couldn't agree more now, what I'm curious about when you left the agency, you know, who was how'd you get your very first client that was just yours?

Well, a couple of things. So, and this, this goes back to the, kind of, the idea of niching down, right? So my very first consulting client, which by the way, paid for all my living expenses and allowed me to kind of focus on growing the business without having to worry about a paycheck. That that was the first big win for me.

And that came about by just through a happenstance introduction through the agency owner I used to work for. All right. And then happened to be we're all from the same city. Right. So he was starting up a coaching consulting company. And he wanted somebody to help him market it. And I had enough of the skill set and I basically just walked in there and said like, you, you need me, right?

Like, We're going to do this. I'm going to launch your podcast. We're going to get you on interviewed on podcast. Like I knew enough about that world to kind of confidently say I could do X, Y, and Z. Well, it ends up, I ended up being an equity partner in that company and, and he's still one of my good friends to this day.

Still. We still produce this podcast. I co-hosted it for a couple of years. So number one, it was, I worked my network of personal relationships. And then the second thing, like w where it came from there is I started to host podcasts and the people that I met through networking, including on just being active on LinkedIn and booking guests for my own show, I would like in the course of those conversations, they would ask me what I did.

And I would just tell them that, yeah, it's what we basically do done for you, podcasting for thought leader, coaches type, you know, coach consultants. And this is the response that I would get. Holy cow that exists. I mean, I can just show up and hit record and not have to worry about anything else. I'm like, well, yeah, that's basically what I built for myself.

and so yeah, that, that's the response that I would get. That was that first little clue that sent me down the road of. Like, well, what, what is a clear and compelling idea for a business? What, how do you, how do you come up with like one, two sentences to describe what you do that gets that kind of reaction?

Because that was the key to everything that was where all my early clients come from. It's still where most of my clients come from is just the networking, personal relationship influence in the circles that I run in. And it's because the idea of the business itself does part of the marketing for me, so that when, like, when I meet people that are in my circles, they instantly understand what I do.

It's clear it's memorable and they, whenever they run into somebody, that's thinking about podcasts and they go, Oh, you gotta talk to Matt. Like, I'm just automatically that guy. and because the idea of the business is very clear and it's, and it's compelling to the right people. So all that to say, you know, that's, that's where my early clients came from and you can do the same thing.

Like if you, if you really do choose the right niche and you choose the right people, it's not that hard to get those initial clients. And if you get clients that are influential and affluent in your space, well, then when you do a good job for them, they're they can't shut up about you. Yeah, that's, that's so true.

And I mean, I said, I must say when, when I heard you describe that, like the moment you get that you say what you do and you get this, I need you kind of thing. You know, I've really had that happen with the tech monster book. Because when I saw I attained the tech months, people could people giggle first and then it all, I need you, you know, people get that.

Yeah, it's not, it's not even about tech fear. It's about tech frustration. It's like, all this stuff does my headache. Right. So it's not that I can't do it, but boy, you know, but people get it and it's yeah. It's, it's, it's that now I'm seeing behind you and people who just listening. Won't see that obviously, but micro famous.

Tell me how that came about because obviously the podcast is part of it. What's the other part. And how did that come about? Okay. Well, like, like as an agency owner, as like, as someone, like I wanted more ideal clients and I noticed that I was running into a lot of the same beliefs, in my, in my clients, the people that I would work with and I was constantly fighting upstream against the Gary V mentality of be everywhere.

Be everywhere, online, be everything to everyone, like never turned down and say like, you don't turn down a sale. If somebody wants to hand you a check, you figure out a way to say yes. I constantly run up against that mentality. Hmm. And what I saw as there was, it was damaging my clients because it was, it was leading them away from the very thing that would make the biggest difference in their podcasts, which is having a very, very razor-sharp clear and compelling idea for their show that cuts through the noise and gets the attention of the right people.

So them trying to like be everywhere and appeal to everyone and try to build this big audience is actually leading them away from the thing that would build them a good audience and would actually make them money. So I wrote the book to kind of like fight back and push back against all that stuff.

And basically lay out a vision where you can say, look, you don't have to be everywhere. You don't have to be every, you know, on every social media platform, you do not have to go and try tech talk, right? You do not have to, you do not have to start dancing and singing karaoke to grow your business. you don't have to be everything to everyone.

But I wanted to give people the roadmap to show them the vision of what is it like when you are famously influential just to the right people. And then you can deliver to them a message that speaks really deeply, and you can basically happily and gladly repel everyone else. And that's you mentioned that people struggle with niching down that that's one of the parts that people struggle with is look, if you want to strongly attract some people, you're going to have to be okay with strongly repelling everyone else, then you have to be okay with that.

And I wanted to give people a way to, to really take pride in that. How do you take pride in. Only serving us a focused perfect group of people for you and not worry about everyone else. Well, beat be famously influential to the right people, be micro famous, and then you won't worry about being, you know, everywhere all the time and trying to be everything to everyone.

So that's, that's kind of why I started down that path. and so the first, like third of the book. Isn't really nothing about tactics. It's nothing about podcasting. It's about the strategy of how do you decide where you want to be micro famous? Who are the right people? Who are your ideal clients? how do you make those decisions?

How do you come up with an idea that speaks really deeply to them so that when you tell people what you do, you get that wow response that you get with the tech monster whisper. And if people get ahold of that, well, then when you do get into podcasting, it actually works and it generates 10 times the revenue that you put into it.

Yeah. Yeah. That makes, that makes so much sense. And you know, the Gary V it's like, Oh God. Yeah. And when you said like, don't, you know, you can't repel or reject anybody who wants to give you a check. And actually I remember Landon Porter at the sales gorilla. He really changed. Like he changed my way of looking at this in this way.

That makes me giggle every time because he says, no, no, no, no. What you want to do is you want to be very careful who you allow to obligate you with their money.

I love it. That's exactly how I look at it too. Yeah, that's the thing. And I think it's, and I think it's, it resonated so much with me because. My first, you know, business project that, I did for many years was making flamenco dance costumes for, you know, for artists. And I didn't know that that. So I was there thinking if somebody wanted something, it was just my job to give them what they wanted.

Right. And then I ended up with a lot of clients I wouldn't have taken on if I had known, you know, this other way of looking at it. So, and it only dawned on me when I came to this like real place of burnout where the frustration that when somebody. Who you really love working with calls and wants you to send, you have to say no, because you're full with people with projects that you don't actually enjoy.

What on earth am I doing? Right. So I was lonely thinking in that. No, no, no. You, if you're in that, working in that space, It's not like a shop where you have to attend to everybody who walks in, like you choose who you want to work with and to even realize that actually yeah. That's okay. That's part of it.

Like I took me a long time to get there, so that's why this resonated so much with me. Yeah. And, and it took me a while to get there too. And to, to where now the point where like one of my friends, jokingly called me the double black diamond master of saying no to a potential client, which, which is funny because the day, the day he said that was right before I had a consultation with somebody that was a little outside of our ideal client space and it was a good reminder.

So I sent them to another agency. we all need that from time to time, we all get tempted to kind of get, get off course and go, Hmm, I could, I can, I can do both. I can do both. I can, I can, I can serve that client too, but, Yeah. Like if creativity is a really high value, you know, for you, yeah. You just have to be really careful like who you allow.

Into your life because your clients affect your creativity and you can, you can feel like you're being creative in the, in the things that you do for them. But if it then takes away from your ability to creatively build your business or creatively pursue your other passions, that in business or not, it, it shuts down that part of your brain, like we talked about.

So one of the things that I noticed with people that are really creative, that might be helpful. Cause I do this is, It's like, well, if I'm going to focus on like one type of person and I'm going to sell them, basically one thing over and over and over again, where does my, where do I scratch my creative edge?

And I think there's two places. Number one, you can scratch your creative Vich by going deeper into that one problem that you solve. Right? So, so I, I, I made a decision years ago to kind of consider myself a marketing professional, but that's a pretty broad thing, you know? I could be doing a lot of different stuff.

I could be coaching people on how to build YouTube channels for example, but I don't right because I want to stay focused on podcasting. It's a part of where I get the creative edge for podcasting is I keep going deeper and I keep peeling away the layers of the onion too. Help people uncover their idea for their podcast.

And that's where my creative, I get to scratch my creative edge. Every time I sign up a new client because I'm helping brand and launch this whole new thing. And every client's a little bit different, even if they're in the same industry. So that's one way that I get to scratch my creative bitch. And then the other is with the structure of the business itself.

Right. You can be a solo preneur. You can have a team of freelancers, you can start hiring employees, you can get an office. Like you can also scratch that creative itch just in how you build your own business and how you market yourself and how you take on more clients. So there's a bunch of ways to kind of scratch that creative itch if you're the creative type.

it doesn't have to be with working with a bunch of different types of people and selling them different types of things. Oh yeah. I love that. Yeah, because it's, I think it's most of the time it's more people can see that bit can see through that. Or if I have to do the same thing over and over, I get bored.

You know, you hear it all the time, but then they over and over again. But yeah, it's, I mean, every, every week is like every new client I take on is a little bit different, you know? and it, and it's awesome to help them launch knowing that I've done something in one space long enough to have real expertise.

you have a read the book, the business of expertise by David Baker. Nope. Okay. So he said something in there that was really good. And, and it really hit home. He said something to the effect of if you're constantly working with clients in new industries or new spaces that you don't know about.

That's fine, but just understand that you're charging your client for you to learn, because they're assuming you're already bringing that expertise. And if you don't have it, you're having to build it on the fly. You're essentially charging them for you to dabble

you're right in the center. So yeah. So if you hear things like that and you go, Oh, wow, you're right. I might like to dabble because that makes me feel good, but I'm shortchanging my clients. The more that I do that like, okay, well that, like that helps you be okay. Like be a more settled and confident and focusing on one type of client, because then you realize, okay.

Focusing on that one type of client is what allows me to see those same patterns over and over again. That's where my expertise comes from. You know, I think a lot of people that struggle with, you know, like, how am I different and what am I going to tell a client? If they ask me why they should hire me, that's a sign that you don't have really strong opinions about how things should be done because you haven't solved the same problem over and over and over and over again, like that's where those strong opinions come from.

And when he, when he pointed that out in the book, I was just like, yeah, that was, it was just confirmation that, you know, the more you focus on the right kind of people and you saw the same problem over and over again, the more valuable you are to them. Yeah. Yeah. And I love, I love how it, how you remind us or help us see that.

Well, actually there's a lot of freedom and a lot of creativity and a lot of expansion in going deeper rather than wider. You know, so it isn't boring. It's, it's just, yeah. You just, and I'm an ass. I actually really, that really resonates when I look at the, at the sewing where it was like, yeah, yeah, no.

And I actually said off the 15 years, I thought, you know, like now is when I enjoy it most. Hmm, because I'm really good at it now, but I could see a dress and I can, like, I can almost cut it without a pattern or I kind of know, like, you know, it's almost, it's, it's quick, it's effortless that, but that comes from lots of all the trial and error, the, you know, it's that learned and earned expertise that, that actually opens up a lot of, a lot of room for.

Creativity and freedom. And so, yeah, absolutely. That's fine. Well, yeah. And the thing that I didn't realize, you know, back, probably 2012, 2013, when I was just doing like more independent marketing consulting things and it was probably terrible at it. what I didn't realize. Is that like, I started off by charging low prices and attracting people that were going to pay me low prices when I did the opposite, which I didn't necessarily intend to do it this way.

I kind of stumbled onto this strategy, but working with people that were at the top of the field and charging them higher prices, it forced me to get really good really quickly. And what was funny about it is that those people that were at the top of the market, they were the most influential, there were also fairly patient.

With new things, trying new things experimenting, right. They had a high tolerance for risk. they really only needed somebody to come to them with a good idea that they, they had a vision that could see that it would work and you seem like you're competent and you seem like you're confident in what you can do.

And they'll just say, yeah. Let's try it. Let's give it a shot. I'll pay you a grand a month, two grand a month. Let's let's give it a shot and we'll see you, you know, three months later, we'll see where we're at. You know, you try selling something that's five grand or 10 grand to the average buyer online and they need a thousand testimonials and a five-year track record.

And you better have 20,000 followers on Instagram or you're nobody. And I, I like if I was to go back and slap my former self, you know, five or 10 years ago, that's what I would tell you is like, Hey, just get around, like get around the ultra successful first. And see what problems they have and offer to try to take a whack at solving them.

And I guarantee you will come across something that works really well. And all of a sudden you'll have something you can package and then take to other people. And you'll have the endorsement of really influential people that will introduce you to a bunch of people that have that same problem. Start there rather than starting at the bottom of the market and then trying to work your way up and be more expensive.

Yeah. I mean, there's, there's so much gold in there. There's there is, that whole. Idea and I've, I've fallen for it. And I learned the hard way, and I've seen it play out a million times. There seems to be that misconception, especially in the beginning when you kind of knew somewhere and you sort of know that you haven't actually earned your expertise yet that you're selling something at a lower price somehow makes it an easier sale and, or makes it an easier project.

Boy is that wrong? Like, you know, because yeah, I know I noticed that there is, a YouTube video. It's cool, like selling the invisible and I can't remember the lady's name now, but I'll find it and put it in the show notes because she talks about the psychology of why that is that people who pay more, tend to be better clients like exactly how you, you just described.

Yeah, totally are. Yeah. And I know, and I've learned just by accident because I used to have. You know, while certain prices for my say for the dresses for little kids, I didn't, I would always feel kind of almost bad because I know kids grow quickly and you know, this year the kid wants to dance club Banco next year, they want to do football.

So I was kind of thinking, God, if that was me, I wouldn't want to spend all that money on a dress that they wear once a year. Right. So I was going, you know, and so you try and make it accessible for the parents and whatever, you know, and. Boy where these parents and like, man, you know, they'd go and I'd have them literally turned the, like the biggest, the biggest compliment they'd give me was that they would turn the dress inside, out looking for some folk to complain.

And I'm like, Oh, so if you can't find anything on the outside, that means, you know, like that was kind of the biggest compliment. And then I stumbled into a project where I was called, where the deal was already done. Fabric selected. Price is discussed and something happened to the dressmaker. Right. And so they called me whether I could take over and they will almost sheepishly asking whether I was okay with whatever the price was.

And I'm like, well, okay. And I was, you know, quietly because it was kind of double that double what I would have charged. The most easy peasy, project, simple little cute dresses, parents happy, nobody calls. And I'm like, what is that video selling? The invisible really explained the psychology behind it. And I'm like, yeah.

Yeah. And you can see it everywhere. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah. I love that. I'll have to check that video out. I'll put it in. I'll take it out. I just can't remember her name now, but, it's an old video, you know, it's, it's, you know, coffee that tastes fabulous and she really goes, it's very funny, but, yeah, so.

Tell us about where people can go to find out about how they become microfiber famous. And what's on the horizon for you. Well, I'm gonna, like I love getting, you know, these types of conversations and I love being on podcasts because they're really fun. You know, it's fun to talk about this stuff and reach out and connect with different types of people.

So if anybody wants to do the same thing, that's where I would always recommend that people start. to me, that's kind of the foundational step of becoming micro famous in this new world that we live in. and so if you want to go to how to get featured. Dot com I did a class there on, on how to reach out to podcasts.

I was like how to craft a story that you can use when you reach out to podcasts that gets their attention and gets them to say yes. And so that's there, but everything else is just going to get micro, famous.com. Right now we don't have a full-blown website there. It's just the links out to like the book and stuff like that.

And the a and the agency, and just track me down. I'm on Facebook, easy to find if you just type in micro, famous. Fabulous. I love it. What's next for you? What's that? Oh, that's a good question. So mainly I think next year, I'm going to start writing a series of like smaller field guides where we go into like the strata, like different strategies and tactics to build.

thought leadership businesses, you know, coaches, consultants, speaker, author types. Those are the people that I work with. And I want to be almost like a, a journalism or a journalist of the industry and start documenting what people are doing. Some of the newer business models that are coming out and different, just different aspects of the thought leadership business as complements to the micro famous book.

And, And yeah, but basically I we're, we're just out there building the email list, reaching people, promoting the book and, And kind of building influence for the long haul. So, yeah, I don't, I don't see much changing for me, beyond, getting back into the flow of, of writing a little bit more in 2021, and then hopefully the world getting back to normal, hopefully.

Oh, thank you so much. There was just so much gold in this episode, so I'm looking forward to listening back. I really appreciate that. Well, thank you so much. I know. Speak to you again, some sounds great. Thank you.