Passion Business Podcast – Episode 40: Rob Fortier – Your Email List is the Heart of Your Business

Anke: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome, Rob. I'm excited to have you here.

[00:00:45]Rob: [00:00:45] I am super excited to be here as well. Thank you so much for having me today.

[00:00:49]Anke: [00:00:49] I really look forward to this conversation because there we're going to be in for a wild ride. So let's just start off. Why don't you share with people where you're from, where you're based and

[00:01:00] Rob: [00:01:00] what's your business.

[00:01:02] Sure. So I am, I'm originally from Massachusetts, but I am in New York city. Now I've been here for 25 years, so I'm officially a new Yorker. So I qualify. And I am a content marketing coach. So I like to work with coaches, solo preneurs consultants to help them really take the mystery out of the marketing.

[00:01:20] Their misses people make it really complicated and you can boil it down to a few steps. Well points. So I'd like to help them figure out how to provide content to the world, get more leads and grow their business. Just try to make it easier and not so do everything. No. Do a couple of things. That's all you need

[00:01:35] Anke: [00:01:35] to do.

[00:01:36] Yeah. Interesting. You need to know what those are, the ways, what those couple of things are. And I would just do the class, so, yeah. Great. That's populous. So it's obviously totally relevant to our listeners and we're going to dive into that in a little bit, but I'm obviously curious and you knew I was going to ask this.

[00:01:55]Okay. Is that, how did you stumble into that and how. When you look at, when you look back at when you left school or when you were at school thing and still am thought of what you wanted to do with your life. Was there already an element there that you might not have recognized at the time? And how has that played out?

[00:02:15]Rob: [00:02:15] You know, that's a really, how much time do we have, cause it's gonna take away.

[00:02:19]You know, I, I wouldn't say that in school, I knew it was gonna end up here, but I have used all the things I have learned from school and along the way to get me to where I am. So originally I went to school for theater. I performed for many years as a musical theater actor. I like to tell the people that I could do dancing for actors.

[00:02:38] I was not a dancer, but I was the singer, an actor. And the reached the point where I. I love the performing, but no longer enjoy the lifestyle I having to get up at six in the morning to go to an audition, to stand in line outside. Like I, I just grew tired of that. So I started looking for other opportunities.

[00:02:55]And I got a job working for an ad agency for a while. I used to love advertising as a kid. Like, it'd be one of those things I would memorize commercials and jingles and people would be like, Hey, what's this what's a good commercial this week. We actually did a project in sixth grade on propaganda.

[00:03:09] And. Did you have to do talk about commercials and I could just write them down, not even ever watch, like from beginning to end to get the whole thing which was a very strange skill to have in sixth grade. So I advertise it. So I've always been sort of an interest. So I worked at an ad agency for a year, kind of a low level entry jobs to see what it was like.

[00:03:26]And then I had the opportunity to sort of get back into theater on the bus. The side of it. I worked in theater box office for many years in New York. And that was great because I didn't have to get up at 6:00 AM, do it to an audition, but I had access to going to shows I got to work with theater, people that I enjoyed.

[00:03:44] And if you know, any theater, people, anybody, you, or anybody listening to the scene, but they're a special kind of people that are lovely and amazing and fun to hang out with. So that was really wonderful, but you know, there's not a lot of creativity in working in the box office. It's like, you have a show, you sell tickets, you show people seats, they give you money, give me a ticket.

[00:04:02] So I came up with this crazy idea to start a greeting card company. I had sort of been. Frustrated with not being able to find cards that I liked in the world. So I started my own company. It was a very low barrier to entry to that. Like the need is a couple of ideas on the printer and you can make them at home.

[00:04:18] And that's how I started. And it sort of started to take off working on a year, a year, I started doing a couple of trade shows in New York. They have the national stationery show at some other shows and. I started getting some traction and I started working with sales reps who were repping my stuff around the country.

[00:04:36] And one of the men became really good friends with and she, she kind of walked into my booth and said, I'm going to be one of your new sales reps. It's like, okay, who are you like? But that was the start of a very long lasting to this day. I talked to her, you know, at least once a month, a friendship and.

[00:04:53] As we were working together, we discovered that we were in the middle of this industry of wonderfully talented people, artists, designers you know, so much creativity, but so many people who wanted to get into the business aspect. Had no clue on how to run a business. Like not even the first thing they thought they were going to walk into this trade show, slap up some things and then walk away a millionaire.

[00:05:18] And so many of them were so disappointed. I was like that the first year I was like, this is going to be great. And I think I walked, I didn't even pay for like half of my booth with the orders I sold. It's very disappointing. So we started seeing this gap. And so we're like, okay, how do we help these people?

[00:05:37] So we actually sat down and wrote a book about working with the sales reps. Cause that was a big question that both of us kept getting. And then we wrote a follow-up on how to do trade shows and, you know, we, we started getting more and more inquiries about like, how do I help? How can you help me? What can we do together?

[00:05:53] So we started putting together a little mini programs. I'm going to date myself. Fair back doing teleseminars before everyone did webinars for that really existed. So on the phone, you know, when you do the little call, when people wouldn't get it, sign in and listen, or they'd get a recording afterwards you know, teaching them things about how to put a line, a cohesive line of cards together, how to sort of target what buyers are looking for, how to appeal to them, those kinds of things to make their, what they did more sellable.

[00:06:20] So we started doing your increments and that led to people wanting to coach with the two of us privately. And it also led to speaking gigs. We were hired by several trade shows to come in and do presentations to their exhibitors or to attendees. And it was kind of like, wait, how did I, how did I go from this to this?

[00:06:38] But I started drawing on all the skills I had learned, like in school, like with creativity and performing, I mean, getting on a stage or even doing a teleseminar or a webinar that that's a performance. So I was like, this is like, Yeah, this is this cool marriage of like, okay. Business things that are fun and performing dialogue.

[00:06:56] And they're helping people like, okay, it's all this great stuff mishmash together. So it was a very sort of odd place to sort of land that. And I realized that, okay, this is the path that I really want to go on. So I ended up shutting down. The greeting card company going to that. And then it sort of kept morphing, you know, I, I decided, okay, I should probably get some training to really learn how to actually coach people rather than just sort of winging it, which is what I was doing most of the time.

[00:07:22]So I went back and got a certificate in coaching with a focus on working with creative people. And that was lovely until I figured out that a lot of people who are creatives don't necessarily have. The finances to hire a coach. And the way I wanted to,

[00:07:38]I'm sure you get a lot of people who need help and they're like, you want to get what you want me to pay you? Oh, that's a different story. So I sort of morphed my idea of working with, you know, young, creative people into working with people who are solopreneurs or, or just the coaches, themselves, people who again are really great at something, but didn't know how to put the business people together.

[00:08:00] And as I. Expanded that a little bit. Then I started to see the opportunities for people who had a real need and also willing to invest in their business to pay for the help that they needed to get, you know, further along, down the path without having to wait so long or without having to just kind of wonder, Oh, how do I make this happen?

[00:08:18] I don't, I don't know. So that was a really eye opening thing for me to go from just creative people, to more people that a little bit of the business mindset, but maybe not quite all the tools in their tool basket to make it work.

[00:08:30] Anke: [00:08:30] That's so that's interesting. That's really the end. The reason I was giggling so alive was because when I first started getting away from being creative myself I make flamenco dresses for dancers.

[00:08:42] Right. To my, my first direction was looking for people who are out to start the sewing business. Right. And so a very similar kind of shift in that sense that. I looked at because I'd been like, where are, where they want to go. And there was the sense of, Oh, I know what you need, but it wasn't what they felt they needed.

[00:09:04]Right. There was literally that, Oh, I just need a better fabric supplier. I don't want it. Well, no, no. You need to look like a little bit more below the surface to uncover where the real challenge is. And one thing that I really found, and I would, I would. Be curious to hear whether that's your experience too, that creative people and that's sewing and anybody who's any sort of chronic with any kind of crafty Archie sort of thing.

[00:09:33] They often want to start a business. Not really because they want to serve other people. They want to do their creative thing all day, every day.

[00:09:41] Rob: [00:09:41] Yes. Right.

[00:09:43] Anke: [00:09:43] So that's where this comes in. And then no, and I was guilty as charged when I started my sewing business. Initially, I was like, totally in that bucket.

[00:09:50] Right. And thought, Oh, what better way of being able to Seoul the everyday than making the business. And so for the people, right. And it took a while to recognize, well, actually, you know, Running a business is a few other things, but quiet. Right? And most of the time when people are in that space still, they're not going to hire a coach because they don't even give themselves permission to take this thing seriously enough to invest at that level.

[00:10:19] Right. So it's just where somebody's at. Doesn't mean they never get there. It's just means that. When the app is place that service isn't for

[00:10:27] Rob: [00:10:27] them, right? Like you said, they're just not, they're not ready for it. I mean, like you know, I could even say I'm guilty too. Of when I started my company, I was like, I'm going to make stuff.

[00:10:37] And then people will just buy it. It's like, there's a whole bunch of other steps in between that it's a habit. It doesn't matter how good your stuff is. If nobody knows that you exist, you can't make any money. You can't sell a product. And, and to something, or part of our discussion about earlier, we were having before the call about you know, programs that promise, you know, this, that, and the other thing you have to realize that there's, yes, that's part of the process, but there's a whole lot of other steps in every business and just, I make, I do my XYZ and then I.

[00:11:07] I'm check my bank account and it's grown exponentially. And you have to have, you know, you have to have an interest in, in, in running a business, even if you don't do, you know, you can't do everything in your business. You know, even people who are solopreneurs sometimes have a virtual assistant or other people to help them.

[00:11:22] But. You have to understand the process of what's happening. You can't just say, okay, I'm just going to keep making stuff. And you just let me know when you sell some things, I'll be here waiting kind of thing. You have to get, you have to have an interest in that process. Even if you don't learn it all or do whatever.

[00:11:38] All yourself, you have to, it has to be, you know, it has to has the sparks joining to, to want to know some of those things. Like, I am sure, you know, you with Tech people, like, like I'm not a techie at all, but I have an interest in it. So I like to get in and futz around. And even if I can't finish it all myself, I want to know what's happening.

[00:11:56] I want to know the process. I think for a lot of solo preneur, orange river people, people, the ones that have that are the ones that. Successful, you know, they cause they they're interested.

[00:12:07] Anke: [00:12:07] That's so true. Right. And I always call it fear-based outsourcing when people want to outsource, because it sounds all grown up and businessy, but it's actually just hiding and not wanting to deal with it.

[00:12:18] Right. Especially when it comes to your finances, when it comes to your sales and marketing and when it comes to your systems, I'm Tech. I think you need to be a business owner and take responsibility and know enough so that you can be a good client for somebody. Right. And not in the process. So, definitely.

[00:12:39] Right. So how did you go? Sorry.

[00:12:42] Rob: [00:12:42] Oh, I was gonna say it could definitely be taken advantage of by somebody, if you just give them everything without knowing what they're actually doing, they can really you for hundreds of hours where they're really not being very productive. So that's part of it too, is watching is minding your own money.

[00:12:56]That's a whole other topic we could talk about for hours, but, and be in the business

[00:12:59] Anke: [00:12:59] owner and really take responsibility for it. Right. So okay. So that, I mean, I love that. I love it when. All your experience and the different interests and talents. When you find that thing where you can bring literally everything to the table.

[00:13:13] And there's nothing like, Ooh, I can be good at this, but I need to kind of vary my creative side or I can be full out creative, but my rational mind doesn't get satisfied that all it's lovely when it comes all together. Right. So what, what was the night? It seems to be kind of, you kind of found your little like, Oh, okay.

[00:13:31] This sits really nicely, but. You've narrowed down further than that now. Haven't you.

[00:13:38] Rob: [00:13:38] I have, you know, even when I got to the side of the business, I was doing a lot of different things. I was I still have a handful of people. I do social media programming for. So that's kind where I'm like, I'm gonna be this, this would be another great marriage.

[00:13:52] And social media and I love learning about it, but I realized that I don't want to be someone's voice all the time on social media. Like I want to help them to say, okay, here's some ideas let's brainstorm. Let's put together some stuff I'll help you a little bit, but then you take it and run off with it.

[00:14:10] So I'm doing everything for somebody like that. Not satisfying because, well, I shouldn't say that it was very satisfying when the client just said, yeah, do whatever you want. The ones that were like, I don't really like this. Can we do this? It's like, well, couldn't you have given me some of those ideas before I spent a whole lot of hours working on this.

[00:14:29] I couldn't get started there. So it really then sort of, you know, where I am now with people is really focusing on You know, some social media, but the content of what they put out, what the subscribers, you know, I sort of feel like for a lot of people, especially in the beginning, your email list is the base of your business.

[00:14:49] Right? I've talked to so many business people go and listen to so many podcasts where they ask people, if you could go back and do one thing over again, what would you do differently? And they're like, Oh my gosh, I would've started building. My email is a lot sooner because you know, once you get people into your community, you can nurture a relationship with them.

[00:15:08] You can hold them, close your heart and give them valuable content and make them loyal fans. Whereas in social media, you know, every other week, One of those platforms has changing the algorithm and you got a hundred million views last week, and then this weekend three, and you know what, you can't talk to those people anymore if they're not watching your stuff, but if they're on their email list and you can keep talking to them.

[00:15:29] So that's where I really saw the gap of, okay, there's a million shiny object marketing things like what's new this week. What can I do? What's great. But I feel like so much of it. Always cast to come back to building an audience through an email list and learning to talk to them. It's not the same, the

[00:15:44] Anke: [00:15:44] pod that's the pod.

[00:15:46] Right. I want to dive into that because I think most people kind of understand. I mean, I get it like a line from the source of a lot of people come to me. I, I kind of need an email list. Don't I. Right. So there's like everybody kind of has flown. You're supposed to have an email list. I, I did, I did video.

[00:16:04] I did the video on that a while ago and I called it. Like play in somebody else's backyard all you want, but just don't build your house there. Right. So, you know, use social media, but don't fully rely on it because you're going to be in trouble. You know, your account can get hacked. You know, the algorithm changes the way, you know, and we've seen it all.

[00:16:24] Like it's not that it's kind of that I'm making up scary scenarios.

[00:16:28] Rob: [00:16:28] It's all happening.

[00:16:29] Anke: [00:16:29] So people kind of tend to know, well, I'm supposed to have an email list now, what.

[00:16:35] Rob: [00:16:35] Yes.

[00:16:36] Anke: [00:16:36] So if you could, if you could give like three tips, what would you say to somebody?

[00:16:41] Rob: [00:16:41] The first thing I would say is in building your email list is is build it cleanly.

[00:16:47] And by that, I mean, way, I mean is don't just meet people and stick them on your email list because you met them at an event, or you talked to them on the phone, like ask them, especially, you know, in Europe, There are all kinds of rules about, you know, who you can email and why you need permission. In the United States, we have the anti-spam act.

[00:17:05] So ask people to get the permission, say don't just put them on your list. That drives me nuts. I used to go to networking events when we were doing stuff in person before COVID and I get home from an event, I wouldn't be like getting emails from like three or four people who I had just met, like. I don't want to hear from you like that little sound on the chat or let's have coffee or something, but you don't even know we had the school forward in our relationship.

[00:17:28] So, so that's one big thing. But the second thing I would say is, is for when you start getting people on your list, look at it as a conversation as. As you would sit down and have coffee with somebody developing a relationship. You know, we hear a lot of folks say, well, I don't want to email this too often because people will be annoyed and they signed up for it, which is the other advantage of having them signed up.

[00:17:50] They volunteered to be on your list. So that means they want to hear from you. They want you to share your knowledge. They want valuable content. They want steps that they can take. So think of it as a conversation and nurturing that relationship. And you can add, you can do tips, you can do teaching, you can do inspiration, you can do all kinds of stuff.

[00:18:08]So look at it that way, as opposed to like, Oh, I'm bothering people. It's like, no, you're enhancing their life by adding value to it with your evils. And I would say the third thing about it is to be consistent if you're going to commit to having an email list just like any marketing strategy, like, you know, anybody can sell you any marketing strategy you want, but if you don't ever do it, it's worthless.

[00:18:31] It's not worth the whatever you paid for it. Right. So it's about doing it consistently. So if you have an email list, decide what's consistent for you now that may be once a month. Okay. That's great. It once a week would be awesome. Twice a month. Okay. That's good to once every six months, not so good because people forget about you.

[00:18:50] They forget like who is this Rob character? So the first email is like, gosh, I don't remember because they, they haven't heard from me in so long. So you have to show up consistently. And because what you, when you do that, you're adding value to people's lives. But also then when you really are ready to make an offer for them, So offer them something to buy.

[00:19:10] They're accustomed to getting your emails. They're accustomed to seeing them and opening them and reading them. And they still might not buy whatever you're selling, but at least, you know, that they're opening your emails and looking at them. And there may come a time when they're ready to buy from you.

[00:19:23] So showing up consistently and adding value, trains them to be used to hearing from you. And then they're more likely to make a purchase because they feel more like they know you and like you've taken the time to sort of get to know Matt. In the process.

[00:19:36] Anke: [00:19:36] Yeah. That's, that's so true. That makes all the sense in the world.

[00:19:39] It reminds me of you probably would've heard of Mark McWhinney he's

[00:19:43] Rob: [00:19:43] he's

[00:19:44] Anke: [00:19:44] been emailing daily for three years. And I remember when he first started, I signed up, like, when he said, like, I'm going to email daily, do you still didn't want to be on the list? I went on that list just to see, because it really flew in the face of what you just mentioned that like, Ooh, I don't want to bother people.

[00:20:02] Right. And everybody's always worried about. Coming across a spammy. And he really took the other approach. He said, well, the people, and he said exactly what you just said. He said, the people who sign up for my email list, this because they want to hear from me. And when I'm, when you sign up, when you interested in what somebody has to say, like this is not the border.

[00:20:25] Right. And he goes, well, And if I go on their nerves, you know, then why should we waste each other's time? Let's just know this often a week, other than boring each other for six months. And so it's just basically filtering the right people in the wrong people out much quicker. And I'm like, well, that's actually true, isn't it?

[00:20:47] I, and it becomes more the email. What the stuff you writes becomes just a lot more conversational. Yeah, it's no longer like, Oh my God, I have to craft this email. And I've suddenly experienced what it's like when you go Sarah, who won't. I can't even remember what I signed up for. Right?

[00:21:06] Rob: [00:21:06] Yeah. It's not, we're not, we're not writing articles for the New York times here where we're writing, we're writing emails to communicate with our audience.

[00:21:13] So take the pressure, give yourself permission to enjoy this part. And yeah. And they don't have to be, you know, I'm going to date myself again, but the whole back in the day, when we started all this email stuff, wasn't, we practice together easy, you know, even all these graphics and you need to have like a column of this and that and tips and an article, you know, a great reach out could be 300 words and you don't even need graphics.

[00:21:36] In fact, I wouldn't recommend you use more than one graphic in any email you send because of spam filters and whatnot, but it's 300 words. I mean, That's you could talk for five minutes and if you roll that down, that's more than 300. So give yourself permission to not make it this perfect being every time you send one.

[00:21:54] Oh my gosh. I have to spend three hours. I've written great emails in half an hour. I've written great emails that have taken me three. It just depends on what I'm talking about, but take a breath and relax. It's more important that they hear from you and get to know you. Then you. And you stall and stall and make a huge deal and never send the email again, the best marketing things are the ones who actually are going to do.

[00:22:14] They're going to,

[00:22:14] Anke: [00:22:14] yes, that's so true. Isn't it. Now it's like now one thing that happens sometimes with people when they all. Con relatively, you know, whatever consistent and they, right. And they're very, so there is the sense that you see it in Facebook groups. Also when people find, well, my audience, they love me, but when it comes to actually, when I make an offer, they will, you know, they say, you know, like that they back off.

[00:22:42] So what would you recommend or what's like, what's your take on that? When, how can you basically guide people on that path towards buying the stock? Without kind of pouncing on them in that sense. What kind of content does it need so that people don't just color like you, but then buy from somebody

[00:23:05] Rob: [00:23:05] else.

[00:23:05] I think the biggest part is knowing what your audience's problem or problems are. So although you're adding, you know, doing when you're doing content, you know, you're not asking to buy something, you are addressing the issues that they are having. And if you don't know what those are, ask them, you know, one of the things I try to do in a lot of my casual emails, Is to have there be a call to action at the end, that is just, Hey, you know, what did this problem resonate with you?

[00:23:35] Or was this helpful to you? And you know, not everyone's going to write back, but if you get a handful of responses that say this was right on the nose, or this didn't really help me, but. I'd like to know more about this. So mind your audience for that feedback, because you can't just talk about the things that you want to talk about.

[00:23:53] You have to talk about what's helpful to your audience, and if you're doing more of that, finding out their problems, and then the thing that you're going to sell them, addresses those problems more in depth. That's when you able to make the really great connection from I'm putting out good content too.

[00:24:10] Now the burger. They're taking a step further and they're going to buy something it's all about, you know, in, in, in marketing speak, they call it the customer journey, right? You're showing people where to go. Like they see you, they're aware of you. They join your email list, they start reading stuff, you're helping them.

[00:24:25] And then you're guiding to, into the next step, which is to make a sale. So your content really needs to address what they're struggling with and offer solutions that you're not. Charging them money for, but then the thing you've actually pitched is what's going to take them to the, the next step. Okay.

[00:24:39] I've got these things now. Not able to get more help, I'll take this program or I'll take this course or I'll buy this handout or something like that. So I think that's where a lot of people get misaligned as they take the casual content. And they just talk about. Too many wild things that are off topic.

[00:24:55] If we want to have fun with it, you know, I interject weird things are going on in my life. Sometimes I tie it into a marketing lesson or something, but especially in New York, I'm a million stories. Even riding subway can be fodder for a newsletter, but yeah. Tie them together. So, so you're helping people along the way.

[00:25:13] And then it's like, Oh dang. Yes, of course I need that because that is going to take me even further than where Rob has already gotten me with all this great content I've been consuming. Yeah.

[00:25:23] Anke: [00:25:23] And, and it's, it's again, I think it comes back to trust because one is that, you know, that liking whatever, but that's really the question.

[00:25:30] Can you help me? Right. And it's that? Who do I trust with, with my, with my problems. Right. So, yeah, I can definitely see that.

[00:25:40] Rob: [00:25:40] Yeah. And that's the hard thing about sometimes, you know, I work with people who are like, well, I built this course and I ran some ads on Instagram for you. It's like really, you know, it's one thing to buy, like a t-shirt or something off of Instagram, but you're really to spend $300 on this class from this person you've never heard of.

[00:25:59] Because you saw an ad on Instagram. Probably not.  That's when Christie was like, yes, there's a, there's a time and a place for all those ads. And I am not a paid ad expert. I would not claim to be, but better use for a lot of people starting out is to develop that relationship and then move them to your email list, offer them something of value to sign up for your email and then nurture that relationship there.

[00:26:19] Yeah, that

[00:26:20] Anke: [00:26:20] makes perfect sense to me. It's like, I always say like adds up with like alcohol, you know, they just amplify what's already there, you know? And because it's, again, it's that same thing. And I've seen, now I've spoken to people go, I need to learn how to do Facebook ads. Why? Well, I've got this health coaching thing.

[00:26:36] Right. And so on. I'm like, okay, so who do you already know? Or no, no, they're not interested. You know, you think, well, if. If the people you already, who already trust you, aren't going to buy your thing. Do you really think, you know, throwing out an ad is going to know like isn't, it's the wrong way around and again, it's it.

[00:26:55] Doesn't. Again, if you do it consciously, then nothing's wrong with it. But if you do it as, because you're scared to talk to the people you already know, you know, then I'm a fear-based, you know, space, and then you never make your best decisions from that. Or you.

[00:27:12] Rob: [00:27:12] No, no, not at all. And it's so much easier for someone to say, yes, I'll give you, I'll give you money to solve this problem rather than me doing the work of a problem.

[00:27:20] I mean, like, again, back to our conversation before the call, there's not an easy answer to everything. If someone can sell you all kinds of solutions, but. There's work involved, no matter what they promise you, you're going to have to do the work. And so with, you know, things like running ads, that's an easy out for you, but they're like, Oh, I can just set up the scraps, like, and I'll, I'll pay someone to do it.

[00:27:41] And they'll just spend money, spend money, spend, and spend money, spend money, really, when they're better use of their time would be. To find people to potentially partner with, like, who do you know that is serving your people in a different way? How could you guys partner together? Can you do a Facebook live?

[00:27:56] Can you mail to each others lists and you, you know jump on someone's like they're teaching, can you get in and teach with them and help them out, help them lift out what they've got going on and that's a way better use of your time and resources then, especially when you're starting out. Just to spend money, you know?

[00:28:12] Cause you can spend it. I'm sure. You know, you can spend it like wildfire era because everything sounds so good. It's like, Ooh, look at all the choices I have and things like the buy out my business. It's like, okay. And remember all, come with work. Yes.

[00:28:26] Anke: [00:28:26] Yeah. And it's not, it's not your easy. That's the thing.

[00:28:29] At some point, you're going to have to close the books and still doing something. So doing something what's on the horizon for

[00:28:35] Rob: [00:28:35] you.  So right now I am actually having a grand old time doing what I just said. I was tell people to do is I'm trying to work with other people who need content and just offering my self as a resource to sort of.

[00:28:50] Make more connections in the world, you know, with COVID going on, I'm not going to networking events. I'm not going to live events in person. So I'm reaching out to people that I know people through friends of friends and just saying, Hey, what do you need? How can I be of service to you? And that is an enormous amount of fun for me because I'm not trying to sell you in anything.

[00:29:06] I just want to see what I can help you with. So, and along that lines, I'm sure at some point I'll be back to selling cars. My bank account will run out of money, but I am really trying to focus on getting people to. Right. Do more writing. That is such a difficult thing for so many people are scared of writing.

[00:29:23]You know, I'm not good at it. I'm gonna make up a bunch of excuses on how time, yada, yada and there are so many ways you can produce emails every week that don't involve a lot of writing. I mean, even just if you're terrible at writing, but I'm sure you have lots of things to say. You know, record it, have somebody transcribe it, or there are a couple of services that will do audio transcriptions from audio, and you can then clean it up afterwards, like find a way to produce the written content.

[00:29:48] Even if you think you're not good at writing. Cause really you're not as bad as you think you are. And if you are that bad, then. Send it to a friend who can perforate it for you. If your grammar is not your thing, if you don't know what two, two, and two which, which one to use, right. Have somebody help you that's a better use of your time and your money then, you know, spending on advertising.

[00:30:06] If you're trying to build a list, I think, especially if you're just starting out. Yeah. So that's, for me,

[00:30:11] Anke: [00:30:11] that makes all the sense in the world. Yeah. And I think, you know, those connections, I think there's always. It always comes back to you. Right. I don't think that generosity is ever wasted or it's never, you know, a waste of time.

[00:30:25] So I think it'll always come back and opportunity and, you know, somebody recommending and somebody putting you in touch with somebody and you never know. So it's always, yeah. So. Talking about connecting. How can people connect with you and find out more about your

[00:30:40] Rob: [00:30:40] work? So you can go to my website.

[00:30:43] It's just my first and last name, Rob 40 eight.com. And through there, you can find links to me on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. And also if you want some more guidance in writing, if you're having trouble struggling with that you can, I can give you some free templates. If you go to nurture.

[00:31:00] Email templates.com. That's nurture email templates.com. You can just download my five templates and they go from really easy. Like I have to write three sentences to, okay. Here's a little more complicated, but it gives you some structure to sort of plug and play things to create. Emails on a consistent basis and take the thinking about like, Oh, how am I going to organize this?

[00:31:20] So I just I'd like to get it to people because it gives them some jumpstart weight to just get going. So those are the way to find me, so I'll reach out.

[00:31:27] Anke: [00:31:27] Well, thank you so much. That's very generous. That's that's definitely worth downloading. It sounds interesting. So, so populous. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming.

[00:31:36] It was fascinating and I shall see more of you.

[00:31:40] Rob: [00:31:40] Thank you. Thank you so much.

[00:31:42] Track 2: [00:31:42] Thanks so much for listening If you enjoyed the episode please don't forget to subscribe And if you leave a review I really appreciate that If you'd like some support building or growing your business especially if you have a tech monster team Go to anchor harman.com That's a N K E H E double R M a double n.com To find out how I can help you do that

 

 

 Welcome to the passion business podcast. The podcast for free spirits with a big idea who want to turn their passion into a business? I'm Anke Herrmann and I'm your host.

My guest today is a marketing agency founder, podcaster. Musician. He runs a podcast launch and production agency based in San Diego and has an international team that helps business coaches, consultants, and thought leaders use done for you podcasting to attract an audience and become micro famous. He's the author of micro famous and currently hosts the micro famous podcast.  Welcome. Matt Johnson.  

Hello and welcome Matt. I'm excited to have you here. 

Anke, I'm so excited to be here.

Fabulous. Well, let's just dive straight in. Let, why don't you let people know where you based and where you're from and what's your business. Okay, well, based in San Diego, although I'm not originally from here, I'm from the Midwest and, in the States and, from the land of cold and snow.

And so I'm very much enjoying living out in San Diego, but, basically what I do is I help thought leaders launch and produce podcasts. So we work with a lot of business coaches and consultants and speaker, author types. And, but five years ago, I was just some dude working in the marketing agency, working for somebody else.

and he had the, the idea to kind of promote me into business development. And his idea was. We're going to do all these Google Hangouts with these people that we have, you know, strategic relationships with. And so I started hosting these live video events with big people in the real estate space, because that's where most of the clients were of that agency.

And I got a chance to just hang out with these people and ask them good questions. And it turns out my background from low many years ago, back in real estate came in handy because I had read all the books and I knew who the coaches were and stuff like that. So I was just able to ask good questions. So those, those Google Hangouts went well to the point where one of the people I was co-hosting them with just called me up one day and said, Hey, man, I'd love to start a podcast.

And it's funny because, because I was thinking about pitching him the same idea. I was going to call him like the next week. So it was good timing. And that show ended up doing really well. I still co-host that to this day, it's called real estate. Uncensored has like a million and a half downloads. And, essentially made, took me from being just a, nobody that worked inside a marketing agency to speaking at industry events and being kind of micro famous in that space in about 18 months.

And so I watched that, that transformation, like with my own eyes and, and lived through that. And then that kind of led to. People asking me like, Hey, how are you doing this? How are you hosting multiple podcasts? And like, I ended up in like four different businesses. I was a partner in coaching consulting business, all this stuff.

Anyway, point being, I got sucked into being an agency owner. So that was never my intention. I was doing like three or four other things. I was going to do coaching consulting. I was going to speak in real estate. I was going to be in real estate, happy as a clam for the rest of my life. And then I got pulled into starting and launching podcasts and producing them.

And now we produce a bunch of shows and that's my sole focus. So I run the agency and about. Three to four hours a week, which leaves me the time to still do the stuff that I'm passionate about. And, you know, like, you can see on video, I'm surrounded by all the musical instruments and stuff. So I still get to make music and work on that in my off hours.

Cause I have a business that I can run and just a few hours a week. Ooh, that sounds like heaven, heaven, but it's not bad. I love, I love how. How it sort of naturally evolved, you know, out of basically being open, exploring and, and, following the path in front of you a little bit. Like, that's what it sounds like, doesn't it?

Yeah. A little bit, you know, I got off of that path quite a bit. Yeah. I mentioned that I was in a few different businesses and, and like when I came out of, so I came out of an agency that sells one thing. Pretty much to one type of person. And I saw the beauty in the simplicity in that model. And I saw how my mentor scaled that up to where they have 500 clients just paying them monthly recurring fees.

And, but when I got into that space, I got tempted and I got drawn off course because I was good enough at what I did that I started to get other opportunities and they all sounded cool. And they were all with these amazing people that I wanted to work with. And so I said yes to way too much stuff.

You know, I was in like, I was in two different coaching consulting companies. I was in a, like a content training material, production business. And then I ended up in a business to take podcasting into the financial services space. and I looked up one day and realized that like, every time I would have a meeting with my partners, I would walk away with a mile long to-do list of stuff that had to be done before the next meeting.

And they would not, and I'm like, well, this, this can't be. But what I really realized is that. I, I had made like my first huge mistake in business, which I tried to do this thing where I thought I was focusing by being in like four different things. But they were all in one industry because my idea was like, if you were any type of person and you came across me, if you bought anything, I made a cutoff of it.

That was my idea at the time of being focused. And then I just, I woke up one day and realized, this is, this is not focused selling. One thing to one type of person is focused and, So when I made that decision to kind of get back on that track and I made that my goal that's when I started to realize, okay, well that means I need to get out of this.

I need to get out of this, get out of this. And, and then I'm like, well, okay, well, if I'm going to get all out of all that stuff, like, what am I going to focus on? Well, I'm going to focus on the thing where I have a hundred percent ownership and I get a hundred percent of the reward when it goes well.

So why do I not just dive into the podcast production and make that my, my sole thing. So just having that, that goal, you know, we talked about before. We hit record, just kind of knowing where you want to end up. You don't know exactly how to get there, but just knowing where you want to end up. That's where I wanted to end up.

I wanted to have one thing to sell the one type of a person. And that helped clarify a lot. Yeah. I love, I love how I think a lot of listeners can resonate because I was giggling. It's like, Oh yeah. You know, it's like when the sort of the multi passionate. People, you know, when you love a lot of things and you're good at a lot of stuff.

So it's so tempting, you know, to take on this and take on that. And, and when you easily get excited about stuff about new projects and creating something new, but yeah. You build yourself a hamster wheel. Yes. That's exactly what it is. you know, I w I was getting, cause I, I do a fair bit of podcast interviews in different spaces and I got the opportunity to go on a podcast.

That's run by another agency owner and we were set to do a pre-interview call and she couldn't make it. So she sent her next in command and the person said like, Oh, they, you know, they weren't able to show up, you know, like she had to put out some fires to put out, you know, how it is and I'm thinking, okay, No, no, I really don't.

I don't, but there's a reason for that, which is because we're so focused on like doing one thing for one type of person, we're able to put a lot of work into. Having really good systems where we do the same things over and over again. And because of that, we're able to attract and retain really good people and they know exactly what they need to do each week.

They know exactly what numbers they're responsible to hit, and we've encountered most of those problems before and we can solve them once and for all. so like when, when are all, most of our clients podcasts, their shows launch on Thursday. When I used to wake up on a Thursday morning, that was a stress day.

Hmm. 

Right because something was always going wrong in the early days when we were doing a whole bunch of different stuff for different people. The more that I focused and narrowed down now, I barely know when it's Thursday and I wake up. I like, I have so many other calls booked. I don't even think about the client launches anymore because I know my staff has it, that only came as a result of us getting focused and super clear and doing one thing over and over again.

And I think that, People that are like multi-passionate and creative. If you never experienced what that's like to have things being done for clients that you don't have to worry about, you don't realize how much freedom and how much creativity that opens up. Whereas if you're doing all these different things, it almost it's technically creative, but you're always in panic mode. 

So it almost like shuts the creative part of your brain down. 

Oh, this is gold right there. Like that's going to be the title because actually it's funny. I was speaking to somebody on, on a, on a, on a workshop yesterday about, and she was talking about niching down and how the narrow, that niches and how like this, the more precise you can define what you do for what kind of person that, that, that actually opens up.

All the opportunities for your business and people have so much resistance and I can understand it because I was kind of like, you know, for a very long time, that idea of like, no, I don't want to like, get this goal or that goal. And, but I love how you put that at actually when you know that this is taken care of.

And not that that takes over then all of a sudden you're free to create. Ooh. Yeah. Well, I mean the book, the book wouldn't exist, right? Somebody like there was a time starting like January of last year when I stopped booking any appointments in the afternoon. And that book wouldn't exist. If I hadn't been able to do that, there's no way I could have written the book in the gaps between calls or on the evenings and weekends.

I I've got, you know, like I've got chronic fatigue and adrenal fatigue and like I've dealt with energy levels for years. I don't have 10 to 12 hours of my best work in me every day for any long stretch of time. And so I had to build the business in such a way that I wake up and I know I've got about four hours of.

Labor intensive stuff. And then I completely unplugged. And then everything else after that is optional, which means it could be a day where I spend the rest of the afternoon taking a walk on the beach. Or maybe it's a day where I spend the afternoon working on music and I completely unplugged from the business, you know, for awhile there, it was me working on the content for the book.

And I spent an, you know, 60 to 90 minutes in a Starbucks writing, writing the book. Right. But none of that would've happened if I hadn't narrowed my focus and gotten the business to the point where it ran fairly smoothly. And, and yeah, I just, I just realized that. Like when I was in that, in the panic mode, when I was on that hamster wheel of doing a whole bunch of different things for clients, I didn't have the mental and emotional space even think about music.

And there was, there was five years where I chased the dream as a pro musician. Like I, I have played the drums since I was two years old. It is in, is baked into the fabric of my being, to play music and being on the hamster wheel of business, completely shut that area of my life down for three years until I got the business straightened out.

so yeah, like I, I think there's probably a lot of creatives out there that you think you're being creative in the business and it's actually shutting down is keeping you from being creative and the things you're actually really passionate about. That's so true. That's so true. yeah. couldn't, couldn't agree more now, what I'm curious about when you left the agency, you know, who was how'd you get your very first client that was just yours?

Well, a couple of things. So, and this, this goes back to the, kind of, the idea of niching down, right? So my very first consulting client, which by the way, paid for all my living expenses and allowed me to kind of focus on growing the business without having to worry about a paycheck. That that was the first big win for me.

And that came about by just through a happenstance introduction through the agency owner I used to work for. All right. And then happened to be we're all from the same city. Right. So he was starting up a coaching consulting company. And he wanted somebody to help him market it. And I had enough of the skill set and I basically just walked in there and said like, you, you need me, right?

Like, We're going to do this. I'm going to launch your podcast. We're going to get you on interviewed on podcast. Like I knew enough about that world to kind of confidently say I could do X, Y, and Z. Well, it ends up, I ended up being an equity partner in that company and, and he's still one of my good friends to this day.

Still. We still produce this podcast. I co-hosted it for a couple of years. So number one, it was, I worked my network of personal relationships. And then the second thing, like w where it came from there is I started to host podcasts and the people that I met through networking, including on just being active on LinkedIn and booking guests for my own show, I would like in the course of those conversations, they would ask me what I did.

And I would just tell them that, yeah, it's what we basically do done for you, podcasting for thought leader, coaches type, you know, coach consultants. And this is the response that I would get. Holy cow that exists. I mean, I can just show up and hit record and not have to worry about anything else. I'm like, well, yeah, that's basically what I built for myself.

and so yeah, that, that's the response that I would get. That was that first little clue that sent me down the road of. Like, well, what, what is a clear and compelling idea for a business? What, how do you, how do you come up with like one, two sentences to describe what you do that gets that kind of reaction?

Because that was the key to everything that was where all my early clients come from. It's still where most of my clients come from is just the networking, personal relationship influence in the circles that I run in. And it's because the idea of the business itself does part of the marketing for me, so that when, like, when I meet people that are in my circles, they instantly understand what I do.

It's clear it's memorable and they, whenever they run into somebody, that's thinking about podcasts and they go, Oh, you gotta talk to Matt. Like, I'm just automatically that guy. and because the idea of the business is very clear and it's, and it's compelling to the right people. So all that to say, you know, that's, that's where my early clients came from and you can do the same thing.

Like if you, if you really do choose the right niche and you choose the right people, it's not that hard to get those initial clients. And if you get clients that are influential and affluent in your space, well, then when you do a good job for them, they're they can't shut up about you. Yeah, that's, that's so true.

And I mean, I said, I must say when, when I heard you describe that, like the moment you get that you say what you do and you get this, I need you kind of thing. You know, I've really had that happen with the tech monster book. Because when I saw I attained the tech months, people could people giggle first and then it all, I need you, you know, people get that.

Yeah, it's not, it's not even about tech fear. It's about tech frustration. It's like, all this stuff does my headache. Right. So it's not that I can't do it, but boy, you know, but people get it and it's yeah. It's, it's, it's that now I'm seeing behind you and people who just listening. Won't see that obviously, but micro famous.

Tell me how that came about because obviously the podcast is part of it. What's the other part. And how did that come about? Okay. Well, like, like as an agency owner, as like, as someone, like I wanted more ideal clients and I noticed that I was running into a lot of the same beliefs, in my, in my clients, the people that I would work with and I was constantly fighting upstream against the Gary V mentality of be everywhere.

Be everywhere, online, be everything to everyone, like never turned down and say like, you don't turn down a sale. If somebody wants to hand you a check, you figure out a way to say yes. I constantly run up against that mentality. Hmm. And what I saw as there was, it was damaging my clients because it was, it was leading them away from the very thing that would make the biggest difference in their podcasts, which is having a very, very razor-sharp clear and compelling idea for their show that cuts through the noise and gets the attention of the right people.

So them trying to like be everywhere and appeal to everyone and try to build this big audience is actually leading them away from the thing that would build them a good audience and would actually make them money. So I wrote the book to kind of like fight back and push back against all that stuff.

And basically lay out a vision where you can say, look, you don't have to be everywhere. You don't have to be every, you know, on every social media platform, you do not have to go and try tech talk, right? You do not have to, you do not have to start dancing and singing karaoke to grow your business. you don't have to be everything to everyone.

But I wanted to give people the roadmap to show them the vision of what is it like when you are famously influential just to the right people. And then you can deliver to them a message that speaks really deeply, and you can basically happily and gladly repel everyone else. And that's you mentioned that people struggle with niching down that that's one of the parts that people struggle with is look, if you want to strongly attract some people, you're going to have to be okay with strongly repelling everyone else, then you have to be okay with that.

And I wanted to give people a way to, to really take pride in that. How do you take pride in. Only serving us a focused perfect group of people for you and not worry about everyone else. Well, beat be famously influential to the right people, be micro famous, and then you won't worry about being, you know, everywhere all the time and trying to be everything to everyone.

So that's, that's kind of why I started down that path. and so the first, like third of the book. Isn't really nothing about tactics. It's nothing about podcasting. It's about the strategy of how do you decide where you want to be micro famous? Who are the right people? Who are your ideal clients? how do you make those decisions?

How do you come up with an idea that speaks really deeply to them so that when you tell people what you do, you get that wow response that you get with the tech monster whisper. And if people get ahold of that, well, then when you do get into podcasting, it actually works and it generates 10 times the revenue that you put into it.

Yeah. Yeah. That makes, that makes so much sense. And you know, the Gary V it's like, Oh God. Yeah. And when you said like, don't, you know, you can't repel or reject anybody who wants to give you a check. And actually I remember Landon Porter at the sales gorilla. He really changed. Like he changed my way of looking at this in this way.

That makes me giggle every time because he says, no, no, no, no. What you want to do is you want to be very careful who you allow to obligate you with their money.

I love it. That's exactly how I look at it too. Yeah, that's the thing. And I think it's, and I think it's, it resonated so much with me because. My first, you know, business project that, I did for many years was making flamenco dance costumes for, you know, for artists. And I didn't know that that. So I was there thinking if somebody wanted something, it was just my job to give them what they wanted.

Right. And then I ended up with a lot of clients I wouldn't have taken on if I had known, you know, this other way of looking at it. So, and it only dawned on me when I came to this like real place of burnout where the frustration that when somebody. Who you really love working with calls and wants you to send, you have to say no, because you're full with people with projects that you don't actually enjoy.

What on earth am I doing? Right. So I was lonely thinking in that. No, no, no. You, if you're in that, working in that space, It's not like a shop where you have to attend to everybody who walks in, like you choose who you want to work with and to even realize that actually yeah. That's okay. That's part of it.

Like I took me a long time to get there, so that's why this resonated so much with me. Yeah. And, and it took me a while to get there too. And to, to where now the point where like one of my friends, jokingly called me the double black diamond master of saying no to a potential client, which, which is funny because the day, the day he said that was right before I had a consultation with somebody that was a little outside of our ideal client space and it was a good reminder.

So I sent them to another agency. we all need that from time to time, we all get tempted to kind of get, get off course and go, Hmm, I could, I can, I can do both. I can do both. I can, I can, I can serve that client too, but, Yeah. Like if creativity is a really high value, you know, for you, yeah. You just have to be really careful like who you allow.

Into your life because your clients affect your creativity and you can, you can feel like you're being creative in the, in the things that you do for them. But if it then takes away from your ability to creatively build your business or creatively pursue your other passions, that in business or not, it, it shuts down that part of your brain, like we talked about.

So one of the things that I noticed with people that are really creative, that might be helpful. Cause I do this is, It's like, well, if I'm going to focus on like one type of person and I'm going to sell them, basically one thing over and over and over again, where does my, where do I scratch my creative edge?

And I think there's two places. Number one, you can scratch your creative Vich by going deeper into that one problem that you solve. Right? So, so I, I, I made a decision years ago to kind of consider myself a marketing professional, but that's a pretty broad thing, you know? I could be doing a lot of different stuff.

I could be coaching people on how to build YouTube channels for example, but I don't right because I want to stay focused on podcasting. It's a part of where I get the creative edge for podcasting is I keep going deeper and I keep peeling away the layers of the onion too. Help people uncover their idea for their podcast.

And that's where my creative, I get to scratch my creative edge. Every time I sign up a new client because I'm helping brand and launch this whole new thing. And every client's a little bit different, even if they're in the same industry. So that's one way that I get to scratch my creative bitch. And then the other is with the structure of the business itself.

Right. You can be a solo preneur. You can have a team of freelancers, you can start hiring employees, you can get an office. Like you can also scratch that creative itch just in how you build your own business and how you market yourself and how you take on more clients. So there's a bunch of ways to kind of scratch that creative itch if you're the creative type.

it doesn't have to be with working with a bunch of different types of people and selling them different types of things. Oh yeah. I love that. Yeah, because it's, I think it's most of the time it's more people can see that bit can see through that. Or if I have to do the same thing over and over, I get bored.

You know, you hear it all the time, but then they over and over again. But yeah, it's, I mean, every, every week is like every new client I take on is a little bit different, you know? and it, and it's awesome to help them launch knowing that I've done something in one space long enough to have real expertise.

you have a read the book, the business of expertise by David Baker. Nope. Okay. So he said something in there that was really good. And, and it really hit home. He said something to the effect of if you're constantly working with clients in new industries or new spaces that you don't know about.

That's fine, but just understand that you're charging your client for you to learn, because they're assuming you're already bringing that expertise. And if you don't have it, you're having to build it on the fly. You're essentially charging them for you to dabble

you're right in the center. So yeah. So if you hear things like that and you go, Oh, wow, you're right. I might like to dabble because that makes me feel good, but I'm shortchanging my clients. The more that I do that like, okay, well that, like that helps you be okay. Like be a more settled and confident and focusing on one type of client, because then you realize, okay.

Focusing on that one type of client is what allows me to see those same patterns over and over again. That's where my expertise comes from. You know, I think a lot of people that struggle with, you know, like, how am I different and what am I going to tell a client? If they ask me why they should hire me, that's a sign that you don't have really strong opinions about how things should be done because you haven't solved the same problem over and over and over and over again, like that's where those strong opinions come from.

And when he, when he pointed that out in the book, I was just like, yeah, that was, it was just confirmation that, you know, the more you focus on the right kind of people and you saw the same problem over and over again, the more valuable you are to them. Yeah. Yeah. And I love, I love how it, how you remind us or help us see that.

Well, actually there's a lot of freedom and a lot of creativity and a lot of expansion in going deeper rather than wider. You know, so it isn't boring. It's, it's just, yeah. You just, and I'm an ass. I actually really, that really resonates when I look at the, at the sewing where it was like, yeah, yeah, no.

And I actually said off the 15 years, I thought, you know, like now is when I enjoy it most. Hmm, because I'm really good at it now, but I could see a dress and I can, like, I can almost cut it without a pattern or I kind of know, like, you know, it's almost, it's, it's quick, it's effortless that, but that comes from lots of all the trial and error, the, you know, it's that learned and earned expertise that, that actually opens up a lot of, a lot of room for.

Creativity and freedom. And so, yeah, absolutely. That's fine. Well, yeah. And the thing that I didn't realize, you know, back, probably 2012, 2013, when I was just doing like more independent marketing consulting things and it was probably terrible at it. what I didn't realize. Is that like, I started off by charging low prices and attracting people that were going to pay me low prices when I did the opposite, which I didn't necessarily intend to do it this way.

I kind of stumbled onto this strategy, but working with people that were at the top of the field and charging them higher prices, it forced me to get really good really quickly. And what was funny about it is that those people that were at the top of the market, they were the most influential, there were also fairly patient.

With new things, trying new things experimenting, right. They had a high tolerance for risk. they really only needed somebody to come to them with a good idea that they, they had a vision that could see that it would work and you seem like you're competent and you seem like you're confident in what you can do.

And they'll just say, yeah. Let's try it. Let's give it a shot. I'll pay you a grand a month, two grand a month. Let's let's give it a shot and we'll see you, you know, three months later, we'll see where we're at. You know, you try selling something that's five grand or 10 grand to the average buyer online and they need a thousand testimonials and a five-year track record.

And you better have 20,000 followers on Instagram or you're nobody. And I, I like if I was to go back and slap my former self, you know, five or 10 years ago, that's what I would tell you is like, Hey, just get around, like get around the ultra successful first. And see what problems they have and offer to try to take a whack at solving them.

And I guarantee you will come across something that works really well. And all of a sudden you'll have something you can package and then take to other people. And you'll have the endorsement of really influential people that will introduce you to a bunch of people that have that same problem. Start there rather than starting at the bottom of the market and then trying to work your way up and be more expensive.

Yeah. I mean, there's, there's so much gold in there. There's there is, that whole. Idea and I've, I've fallen for it. And I learned the hard way, and I've seen it play out a million times. There seems to be that misconception, especially in the beginning when you kind of knew somewhere and you sort of know that you haven't actually earned your expertise yet that you're selling something at a lower price somehow makes it an easier sale and, or makes it an easier project.

Boy is that wrong? Like, you know, because yeah, I know I noticed that there is, a YouTube video. It's cool, like selling the invisible and I can't remember the lady's name now, but I'll find it and put it in the show notes because she talks about the psychology of why that is that people who pay more, tend to be better clients like exactly how you, you just described.

Yeah, totally are. Yeah. And I know, and I've learned just by accident because I used to have. You know, while certain prices for my say for the dresses for little kids, I didn't, I would always feel kind of almost bad because I know kids grow quickly and you know, this year the kid wants to dance club Banco next year, they want to do football.

So I was kind of thinking, God, if that was me, I wouldn't want to spend all that money on a dress that they wear once a year. Right. So I was going, you know, and so you try and make it accessible for the parents and whatever, you know, and. Boy where these parents and like, man, you know, they'd go and I'd have them literally turned the, like the biggest, the biggest compliment they'd give me was that they would turn the dress inside, out looking for some folk to complain.

And I'm like, Oh, so if you can't find anything on the outside, that means, you know, like that was kind of the biggest compliment. And then I stumbled into a project where I was called, where the deal was already done. Fabric selected. Price is discussed and something happened to the dressmaker. Right. And so they called me whether I could take over and they will almost sheepishly asking whether I was okay with whatever the price was.

And I'm like, well, okay. And I was, you know, quietly because it was kind of double that double what I would have charged. The most easy peasy, project, simple little cute dresses, parents happy, nobody calls. And I'm like, what is that video selling? The invisible really explained the psychology behind it. And I'm like, yeah.

Yeah. And you can see it everywhere. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah. I love that. I'll have to check that video out. I'll put it in. I'll take it out. I just can't remember her name now, but, it's an old video, you know, it's, it's, you know, coffee that tastes fabulous and she really goes, it's very funny, but, yeah, so.

Tell us about where people can go to find out about how they become microfiber famous. And what's on the horizon for you. Well, I'm gonna, like I love getting, you know, these types of conversations and I love being on podcasts because they're really fun. You know, it's fun to talk about this stuff and reach out and connect with different types of people.

So if anybody wants to do the same thing, that's where I would always recommend that people start. to me, that's kind of the foundational step of becoming micro famous in this new world that we live in. and so if you want to go to how to get featured. Dot com I did a class there on, on how to reach out to podcasts.

I was like how to craft a story that you can use when you reach out to podcasts that gets their attention and gets them to say yes. And so that's there, but everything else is just going to get micro, famous.com. Right now we don't have a full-blown website there. It's just the links out to like the book and stuff like that.

And the a and the agency, and just track me down. I'm on Facebook, easy to find if you just type in micro, famous. Fabulous. I love it. What's next for you? What's that? Oh, that's a good question. So mainly I think next year, I'm going to start writing a series of like smaller field guides where we go into like the strata, like different strategies and tactics to build.

thought leadership businesses, you know, coaches, consultants, speaker, author types. Those are the people that I work with. And I want to be almost like a, a journalism or a journalist of the industry and start documenting what people are doing. Some of the newer business models that are coming out and different, just different aspects of the thought leadership business as complements to the micro famous book.

And, And yeah, but basically I we're, we're just out there building the email list, reaching people, promoting the book and, And kind of building influence for the long haul. So, yeah, I don't, I don't see much changing for me, beyond, getting back into the flow of, of writing a little bit more in 2021, and then hopefully the world getting back to normal, hopefully.

Oh, thank you so much. There was just so much gold in this episode, so I'm looking forward to listening back. I really appreciate that. Well, thank you so much. I know. Speak to you again, some sounds great. Thank you.