Passion Business Podcast – Episode 39: Kristin Molenaar – Ditching Vanity Metrics for True Profitable Relationships

Anke: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome, Kristin, I'm excited to have you here.

Kristin: [00:00:48] I'm really excited to chat with you.

Anke: [00:00:51] Well, let's just dive straight in. Why don't you let people know, where in the lovely world you are and what's your business?

Kristin: [00:00:59] Yeah. So I am in the U S. I'm in Scottsdale, Arizona. So it is despite the fact that I'm wearing short sleeves, most of the year, this is appropriate this time of year, not so much, but I'm trying to pretend like it's sunny right now.

Yeah, so I run a business called yes, boss, and we help entrepreneurs with their visibility and credibility strategies. And our methodology is profitable podcast guesting. So we live and breathe podcasts. I, you know, I'm constantly on podcasts as a guest and we help our clients get on podcasts as guests.

It's really fun. It's really fun. So I say that talking is my zone of genius. This is what I do. Do I show up and I talk.

Anke: [00:01:41] So you're in the right place then

Kristin: [00:01:43] Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Anke: [00:01:47] Now of course you would know that I'm going to ask you is that something that you had in mind when somebody asked you, you know, When you were at high school, like, what do you want to do later on?

Is that something that was somehow on the horizon or, or not at all?

Kristin: [00:02:03] Oh, gosh. Well, if you had told me that I could talk for a living, I would have said yes, but I didn't know that this existed. I did definitely did not know that I wanted to be a business owner. You know, I always growing up, it was. A lot of, I don't know what I want to do.

I don't know what I want to do, but in hindsight, I could actually see that I was very entrepreneurial from the start. I did a lot of little projects as a kid. I was very like money motivated. I would do anything random to make money. Got my first job when I was 15. Like I really wanted to work. I like the idea of working.

So in hindsight, I could say that, yes, I could see the entrepreneurial-ism in me. But I didn't know that this existed. And it it's, it was it was definitely a journey for me. This was not a straight path. I didn't know where I was headed. And I feel like you could ask me one year ago where I would be now.

And it was like, well, he didn't know I had ended up here. So it's, it's shifted a lot throughout the years.

Anke: [00:03:01] Yeah. I'm tempted to say I'm not surprised because I think it happens to most people. So what was the first thing you did then when you left school?

Kristin: [00:03:10] Yeah. So when I left school I had gotten my first office job before I graduated from high school.

And I guess part of the story about that is that I actually graduated high school a year early. And I think when some people hear that, they think like, Oh, wow, she's very academic. Well, no, I am very good at doing just enough to be done. So. So I realized that I didn't have to necessarily get straight A's.

I could be like a B, and even sometimes a C student, as long as I pass the classes, I could check them off the list and I could get it done. So I'm very much like, just get it done, move on, move on, move on. I'm always looking for the next thing. So I was able to graduate. I actually technically graduated when I was still 16.

It was about two weeks before my 17th birthday, but I was really young and I had my first office job. So at the time I had been working at my orthodontist office. So that's the same person that put braces on my teeth was my  first employer. And you know, I was looking for a new job and at the time I found a new job that paid pretty well.

So for me, it paid pretty well. As a high school kid. And it was an office job and I realized how much I really loved working in an office. So the story, I guess, is that I preferred working to school and that was a struggle with my family. They wanted me to get a degree. They thought that that would be the right foundation.

So I graduated high school in three years, and then I got a two year college degree in 10 years because I was so unmotivated.

I was so unmotivated to go to school because I didn't want to spend money on an education when I could learn a lot of stuff. I mean, I really was always learning a lot of stuff when I was working a job. So that was a battle between my family and I, they wanted the education and I would just wanted to work.

Anke: [00:04:59] Hmm. That's interesting. Isn't it? I think a lot of people would relate to that. So looking back in hindsight, do you think your parents were right in a way, or do you think, Oh boy, I wish I'd been more stubborn and just did it my way.

Kristin: [00:05:15] No, I don't think they were right. I mean, but I tend to have just a kind of a life philosophy that's a whole lot different from everybody in my family. So my whole family, I mean, I come from a line of people that work in government. So people that work in local government it's that like get a job, stay there for 30 years, collect benefits, accrue vacation time, very steady, low risk. You know, when you get together with my family, just about every family dinner, everybody's talking about how much they have in 401k plans and how much vacation time they've racked up.

And I'm over here saying like, I think I have an itch for a new idea and everybody's thinking, Oh, well, there goes, Kristen, again, another risk that she's going to take. So no, no one. No one asks me, you are the first person that has ever asked me about like my high school or college. Like nobody asked me you know, what degree do you have?

No one cares what degree I have. Thank God. Right. Thank God. Cause I don't really have a degree. I have a two year degree, but yeah, I, I didn't see it. I didn't see it coming. My family really wanted me to, were pushed for the low risk path and I've never been one to do that.

Anke: [00:06:27] But it's, it's fascinating to see that you kind of knew really early on, like, because quite often when you talk to people, they have the urge, but at the same time, they're so influenced by the upbringing that they actually do go the degree path and then change tack. So you knew right from the start, so, okay. So that first office job, what was next?

Kristin: [00:06:53] Yeah, so I worked a series of office jobs and what ended up happening is every time I got a job, like I always worked for really small companies. I want to put that into perspective. I liked small companies.

I liked being able to walk into the owners office and be able to talk to the person in charge. Like I liked that small intimate environment, but every single job that I got, I ended up getting promoted from within. So like the first one of the first jobs I had in a proper office was being like an administrative assistant.

When I left, I ran the office, I was the office manager. Then I got brought into my last like, quote and quote corporate job. And I say that because it's very small business, but that was a consultancy for people that were launching beauty and cosmetic products. And I was brought in to just kind of help, like probably, I don't know what you would call the position.

I think I was technically brought in as an assistant project manager, but when I left, I was the vice president of the company. Like I really ran the show for the owner. And I had, we had talked even about me taking over the company when she retired. And so that was my last regular job. But ultimately I had to leave that job because of stress between my boss and I, she didn't, she and I butted heads a lot.

It was a really it was a really unhealthy environment. She didn't treat me very well. And the bummer thing about it was that I was so passionate about the work. Like I had always been really passionate about the work. I love the clients. I love the work that I was doing. I loved all of those things, but I needed to get out.

And I realized at that point, you know what, I love working so much, but I can't let people keep hindering my growth. And so I need to just start my own thing. And that's when I realized that I could start my own thing. So the story goes that I thought, because I was a really fantastic employee, that I would be a really fantastic entrepreneur, you know, ego.

Yeah. Right. I was just certain about it. And it, my, when I started my entrepreneurial journey, I spent 14 months living in a spare bedroom at my in-laws with my husband and two large dogs because I was not a fantastic entrepreneur. Those skills were not transferable. And I really, really struggled those first 14 months.

I didn't really know what to do. I thought that I would do coaching and consulting for the same industry that I had come out of because that's where I had experience. But what really highlighted for me as well. I loved the work. I wasn't passionate about the beauty industry. That just, wasn't what I wanted to do.

And I realized in that time that I was actually pretty passionate about passionate people, which is a weird passion to have, you know, I, I was passionate about other people that wanted to be business owners and I didn't know that was a job. It was just like, okay, cool. Like what do I do with that?

And. Really after struggling for 14 months, I realized I just need to do something to make some kind of money, but I don't want to sacrifice my freedom anymore. And I went into becoming a virtual assistant and I got my first virtual assistant gig making a whopping $15 an hour. Set me on the trajectory that I've or the journey that I've been riding ever since.

So that was in 2016 when I got my very first client in January that year. So we've been, I've been doing this thing for five years now.

Anke: [00:10:12] Wow. Wow. There's a lot. There's a lot in there. I love that you share that so openly because yeah, there's often that idea that I was giggling when year when I heard your talk, because I went and left my job, moved to Spain to start a sewing business, like literally with this, like how hard could it be? I know how to sew and I know how to do stuff. So yeah. So what did you, because I think a lot of skills on fact transferrable, which ones were the ones that you realized, Jesus, nobody prepared me for that?

Kristin: [00:10:48] So as an employee, there's a big, big, I've thought about this a lot. There's a very big distinction here. The biggest one that I feel is when you were an employee, you are expected to be a doer. So employees, their worth is founded being able to do more things, have more skills, have a wider range of skills, be able to accomplish more things to actually get in and get the work done.

And what I have found now is that as a business owner, the more that I do and the more I would, even for me specifically, the more that I know, it actually ends up sabotaging some of my success, because I think if I know how to do it, therefore I should be doing it. And therefore I shouldn't hire somebody else to do it.

I shouldn't be putting a system or a person in place to build this company. I need to be the company. So as an employee, like you are what you do. Like the boundaries of the value that you bring, are you right? But as a business owner, what I have realized is that I am responsible for building an entity, a company that is outside of just Kristin Moolenaar.

So. I need to put people and processes in place. I am now I'm a visionary leader, so I'm supposed to come up with what's the next thing on the horizon and lead a team, or, you know, even for solopreneurs, lead automations and lead processes and all of these things. So the sabotaging thing is when we think that we've got to do it all ourselves, because then really what I have realized is that we become self-employed.

I like to say this a lot because I think it really hits home for people. A lot of people I hear refer to their business as their baby, and this is like a justification for holding onto all the things. Well, I have a three-year-old and so this really hit home for me about three years ago, and I realized, wow, even my son, I am raising to be independent.

At some point, he will have independence to go to school. He will eventually leave the house, get married, all of these things, but we don't even think about the fact that we're holding onto our babies, like little infants and never allowing them to grow into, into anything, but then wondering why our businesses aren't growing.

Well, you're not giving them any independence here. You're holding on to them and you're making them so dependent on you. And when they're, when something is so dependent on us, there is a limit to where it can grow.

Anke: [00:13:15] That's so that's so true.  That that really hits home. I think that hits home for me and it hits for a lot of people I'm sure. So, okay. But you're not a VA now.

Kristin: [00:13:26] Okay. I am not, I am not a VA, but that was an interesting one going from being seen as a doer, to being seen as an expert, that was like a whole nother journey for me.

Frankly, I ha I was running a virtual assistant agency, so we've hit our first six figures in 2018. We, I was running a six figure agency that pretty much knew how to run itself, but I was still doing all the sales calls. So I was meeting people as they were coming in the door. Right. And I was so frustrated that people would introduce me via email and say like my friend, Kristen is great VA and I'm thinking, Oh my gosh, please stop calling me a VA, I'm not a VA. But nobody knew better. You know, I had never taken the time to, I mean, it kind of rebrand myself in a way, you know, I, yes, I ran a virtual assistant business and you know, now I run an agency that helps people get on podcasts, but. That's not like my, I don't want to be known for that. Like I ha I, I, myself, I have a separate identity, you know, I am the owner of this company.

Yes. But I am not the company. You know, the company is multiple people on my team that run that business with me. So I would actually say that I didn't know that it was going to do this, but becoming a podcast guest is one of those things that really helped me shift perspective. So I was able to become more visible as a podcast guest, obviously because you're meeting new podcast hosts, you're being introduced to their audience, but it also upped my credibility because I think that a lot of people spend a lot of time, like putting their expertise out there, trying to hope that someone will see them as an expert because they're giving so much value that I think the trick that I kind of hit on here unintentionally was that other people started bragging about me and my credibility went up as a result because I would show up and I would start talking about what I learned about entrepreneurship, what I what I found to be true, offering advice and all of these things.

And other people started doing the bragging for me. So that elevated how people saw me. We were able to raise our prices. I stopped being introduced to people as the VA. People that had been in my circle, like on, say on LinkedIn, especially people that I've been following since being in the beauty industry, they started reaching out to me going, Oh, I had no idea that you did this thing.

Like I had no idea you were an expert. And the VA being the doer really started to shed off of me because I was controlling the narrative and getting out there in a way that was giving me credibility. So thank goodness for that, because I was getting really tired of being seen as, you know, and not to discredit people that are VA's, but in my mind it was like, I'm ready to do something else.

I'm ready to go to that next level. And I need to take control of the narrative.

Anke: [00:16:17] Mm.  Taking control of the narrative that really resonates with me because I really had a similar experience when I first created videos to talk about, you know, Taming, the Tech Monster and brought my tech skills in, I often got this, oh, so what are you then? Are you a VA or are you a web designer? I'm like, no, so it was that same thing. And from what I hear you say, probably for similar reasons. That sense that, well, if you look at me as somebody that you need to come and tell what to do you miss out on about 95% of what I can offer you.

Kristin: [00:16:55] Yes. Yes. That was a big part of our pivot because we, you know, up until about a year ago, we were still doing all the things for our clients. So while I wasn't the VA, my team was doing all the work. So my team was functioning as like an online business management VA team and our clients guided the strategy.

And I would talk to my team. We would have team meetings, they would tell me the various things our clients were doing. And I would sit back and go, Oh, that's not going to work. Mm. Nope. That's not a good idea. And my team would say, well, their coach is telling them to do the thing. And I'm thinking, well, we don't have any control.

I mean, we're not in a position of controlling this because people don't see us as, as an expert. And when we started, when we decided that we wanted to just do podcast booking for our clients, it was just this huge light bulb for me because when clients come in, I can say we will guarantee visibility.

We will guarantee that you're going to up your credibility. We can guarantee that you can make a shift from being seen as a doer to being seen as an expert. We can guarantee that you will control the narrative, and having that kind of control in the niche that we chose, that's what for me, like sealed it, yes, this is what we're going to do because finally people are going to listen to us and when they listen to us, we can actually get them the results that we're trying to get them. Yeah. It was a frustrating position to be in for sure.

Anke: [00:18:14] Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing I hear is from doing all the things for all the clients that narrowing down.

Right. And I think, yeah, we talked about, Micro Famous, You know, that really narrowing down and scratching the creative edge by going deep and really becoming good at one thing. And I think there's a lot of gold in there you literally, you're living proof of it.

Kristin: [00:18:41] And I think the even crazier thing to me, aside from how narrow we've been able to go, cause that's kind of wild to me.

Like really, you can take a niche this narrow and still do, you know, be successful in it. The, the crazy thing is that now I'm able to look back at all these things, like in my childhood and like, I, my journey and I've because we're so specific I've been able to, and this is what you mean. I think by like, Crafting your own creativity in the role.

I've been able to determine my own role. Now I do get like what I do when I bring to the table. As I talk, you know, I was the kid, I was the kid. Did it family events that the camera would get turned on in. My family would say, Oh, there's Kristin jumping around in front of the camera again. Now what do I do for a living?

Like

Anke: [00:19:32] that is really interesting. Literally. I did a post on, I don't know, somewhere asking literally that, like, what did you most love to do when you were a child and how does that show in the work you do today? And it was incredible that literally everybody found the connection. Yeah.

Kristin: [00:19:51] Yeah. Sometimes it takes a journey.

It takes bobbing and weaving and doing these things. And, you know, I was talking to my niece the other day and it's like, you know, sometimes the journey highlights for you, what you don't want to do. And that's okay. But that gets you close to the thing you do want to do. And when all those puzzle pieces start to come together, it's just this like, Whoa, but I never could have known it without experiencing all the things along the way.

Never could have known it.

Anke: [00:20:17] I'm so glad you say that, because I think there's so often people looking for the shortcut, looking for the you know, I would say looking for certainty where there isn't any looking for that proven path that I just have to follow. And I don't think that's where the fun is, I don't think that's where the growth growth is.

And I don't think that's where the, where the evolution and the learning is.

Kristin: [00:20:41] Yeah. Yeah. My motivation for being an entrepreneur was to create freedom for myself. I mean, aside from creating my, one of my other was to create work environments that people would enjoy. So that was big for me, but, you know, I think that people think that freedom and, and enjoying your work as something for some day. And what I've realized is that with a focus on the journey and really being intentional about that journey and not just being just money focused like money, isn't the prerequisite for all of these things, enjoying the journey and really being there for the journey enables you to have some of those other things, right from the get-go like freedom.

I had that. Right from the get-go honestly, even when I was making $15 an hour, I started outsourcing tasks at $15 an hour and making money off the top passively. So if you think about things more strategically and get, get serious about what you want out of your journey. You can have those things in your journey, even when you're just starting out.

But I think just too many people put pressure on, you know, a lot of the marketing messages that we see, we put stock in what people are telling us a hundred thousand in three months, a million. And you know, what, whatever, thinking that those are the benchmarks for success. And what I'm saying is that.

If you focus on what you really want now and have a journey that reflects what you find joy in now that financial success will come and you will experience that financial success without having sacrificed the other stuff and having to undo all the bad habits that you've learned along the way.

Anke: [00:22:18] Yeah. That's so that's so true. And I also love that you say that the freedom you actually start out with, it's not something that comes with a certain number of revenue, because you know how many people make a lot of money, but don't have freedom and some people make no money and don't have freedom either.

Right. So it's just, it's just not, hasn't got anything to do with the bank balance, basically.

Kristin: [00:22:45] You're absolutely right. And it's a bummer that more people don't realize that I don't feel like a lot of people are talking about it. Cause it's not, you know, it's not a sexy message to share, but there's so much reality in it.

You're right. How many of us know people that do make a lot of money? Have no freedom or don't make very much at all and have zero freedom. It's sad. Yeah.

Anke: [00:23:05] Yeah. And it's just, and I think, you know, that old saying you can't ever have enough of what you don't really need. You know? I think it's never more true than, than here.

Yeah. So

I was about to ask you where you headed, but I'm still curious about the service you're actually offering, you know, because people, people who are listening are listening to podcasts, right. So. What's the difference between me going out and finding myself podcasts to be a guest on and hiring you? Or your company, obviously not you, right.

Kristin: [00:23:43] Thank you for setting that expectation. Yes. I'm not doing all the booking. Yeah. So the way that we see, we see our service in three parts and all of them have a lot of importance. So the three parts of how we work with somebody is we sit down and we help you figure out how you need to position yourself for the podcast market.

So we're sitting down and we're, we're writing, talking points for you. So. This is one of the things that I have identified as somebody who's doing podcasting and it's really helped further their, their business. And it's helped them control the narrative and helped, you know, help other people see them in the light.

They want to be in. It's really your bio and your talking points and how you're pitching people. When you don't have these things in place, podcast hosts don't know what to talk to you about. And so you really have to deliver these on a silver platter. It's a lot of what people do when they hire a PR agency.

Is let's look at your angle, you know, how are you going to come into this conversation? What are the things you need to say to both attract people that are your ideal audience and repel people that are not your ideal audience? Because that's another thing that I discovered when we came into the, this niche is I was saying things in the beginning about being a podcast guest that was attracting people with the wrong thinking about being a podcast guest. And so I had to finagle, okay, how am I talking about this service so that people know that they're the right fit for me. So for me, this is all about relationships going out and building relationships with podcast hosts and not about just using a podcast host to get to their audience.

So I feel like that's like looking at looking for a one hit wonder strategy. I'm interested in a long tail strategy. I want to meet people that I'm interested in knowing a year down the line. So putting together those talking points is the very first part. And then we do done for you booking. So our philosophy is that we want to help our clients work less and make more.

So we're constantly looking for ways to take a lot of people like that one. So we want to take that work off of a client's plates. So the idea is we do all the research. We do all the back and forth communication. We just put podcasts interviews on your calendar with the information you need to be prepared for that interview.

But the biggest thing that I think that we offer our clients is the education component. So, this is not about the one hit wonder, like I said, this is about longevity. This is about knowing how to leverage every single interview for additional visibility and additional credibility. Those things don't come from just showing up, talking, hanging up the phone and then never coming back to it.

That's that, that is a poor use of somebody's time. And so what I've done is I talk through with our clients exactly how we have leveraged everything we do. So yes, I've been on podcasts that have millions of episodes or millions of downloads.

I've also been on podcasts that have tens of thousands of people on the email list. And you know, what happened to those episodes outside of a relationship? Absolutely nothing. Hmm. Yeah. And I feel like people don't, people need to hear that. It's not about going after the vanity metrics and hoping something will happen.

Having an entrepreneur publish one episode or said one email that has my name on it has not blown up my business. However, the relationships that I have fostered with podcast hosts over time have gotten me invited back to speak as a guest expert, have gotten me places in their emails automated sequences, have ended up being very great, like collaborative partnerships and referral partners.

That is where the profit is in that relationship. And so that is what we spend time teaching our clients. And there's a lot of education that comes from me and my team just to make sure that we're not. Booking you on say, we'll get you on 20 podcasts. Well, we're going to teach you how to turn that 20 into 40 into 60, and really drag that out for, for a career.

Not for a one hit wonder. So that's the difference between going out and doing it alone versus doing it with somebody like us.

Anke: [00:27:50] That sounds fabulous. So what's on the horizon for you? What are you working on? What are you excited about?

Kristin: [00:27:57] I'm excited about just continuing to pour education into our clients. I mean, I know that that sounds kind of.

Like really, is that really the thing that, that you're interested in, but what I've realized is that the way, the thing that fills me up is seeing other people get results. And, and that goes back to something I said, like, right at the beginning of this conversation, you know, when I was floundering as an entrepreneur in the beauty industry, I realized I'm just passionate about passionate entrepreneurs.

And so how can I help other entrepreneurs? Be successful in what they're doing, because I really like I have, I get a high off of seeing other people succeed and realizing. So I'm working with a coach right now and she's helping me to realize that I can be a mentor and I can be like a coach to our clients without sacrificing my freedom.

And so that's been kind of interesting. I've been on this like content creation kick. She said to me, she's like, you're a content creating queen and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, really? Like I've never thought about it that way. And so really like owning that, owning that I have something to say. I have something very specific to say.

I have something that's kind of polarizing to say about being a podcast guest. You know, people are saying, get on the biggest show in the biggest name and I'm here to say. No, that that's not where the real success is. So I have a polarizing opinion about this and I'm excited to just continue to get out and let my opinions and my voice be heard in this market.

Anke: [00:29:27] Yeah. I love, I love that because, you know, I could not agree with you more. I started my podcast when I heard somebody say the gold is in the guests. It's not even about the listener it's and I always had this sense, like, Oh, you know, a podcast, I started out as a listener and I always thought, well, having my own show, it'd be fun, kind of, you know, but never really.

And when I heard. Well, it's actually more about the relationship that you form with your guests, that same weekend I went and started the thing. So yeah, I totally totally agree with you. And I also have seen the impact of that, you know, in real life I have that I have seen that play out so I could not agree more with you.

So where can people go and find out about what what you're doing about you get in touch with you. Yeah.

Kristin: [00:30:19] So our, our website is yesbossva.com. And that's where you can find out about what we're doing for our clients. There's a little bit about me and my story on that web page. But the place that I hang out, I only hang out on LinkedIn.

I'm not a big social media girl, but LinkedIn is where I publish content and where I hang out with people. So if you listen to this. You know, find me on LinkedIn and just let me know. I'm always curious to see where people come from and what kind of takeaways they have about conversations. But, and the cool thing is if you search my name, I'm the only Kristin Molenaar.

Anke: [00:30:52] I was just thinking that you're lucky with that name. You're easy to find. Thank you so much. It was a delight speaking to you and having you share your story and your wisdom. I hope have to have you on again.

Kristin: [00:31:07] This was so much fun. Yeah. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed this. I knew, I knew it'd be a fun conversation you and I had had already talked enough to know.

Anke: [00:31:17] Awesome. Thanks so much. Bye bye.

Kristin: [00:31:19] Bye.

 

 Welcome to the passion business podcast. The podcast for free spirits with a big idea who want to turn their passion into a business? I'm Anke Herrmann and I'm your host.

My guest today is a marketing agency founder, podcaster. Musician. He runs a podcast launch and production agency based in San Diego and has an international team that helps business coaches, consultants, and thought leaders use done for you podcasting to attract an audience and become micro famous. He's the author of micro famous and currently hosts the micro famous podcast.  Welcome. Matt Johnson.  

Hello and welcome Matt. I'm excited to have you here. 

Anke, I'm so excited to be here.

Fabulous. Well, let's just dive straight in. Let, why don't you let people know where you based and where you're from and what's your business. Okay, well, based in San Diego, although I'm not originally from here, I'm from the Midwest and, in the States and, from the land of cold and snow.

And so I'm very much enjoying living out in San Diego, but, basically what I do is I help thought leaders launch and produce podcasts. So we work with a lot of business coaches and consultants and speaker, author types. And, but five years ago, I was just some dude working in the marketing agency, working for somebody else.

and he had the, the idea to kind of promote me into business development. And his idea was. We're going to do all these Google Hangouts with these people that we have, you know, strategic relationships with. And so I started hosting these live video events with big people in the real estate space, because that's where most of the clients were of that agency.

And I got a chance to just hang out with these people and ask them good questions. And it turns out my background from low many years ago, back in real estate came in handy because I had read all the books and I knew who the coaches were and stuff like that. So I was just able to ask good questions. So those, those Google Hangouts went well to the point where one of the people I was co-hosting them with just called me up one day and said, Hey, man, I'd love to start a podcast.

And it's funny because, because I was thinking about pitching him the same idea. I was going to call him like the next week. So it was good timing. And that show ended up doing really well. I still co-host that to this day, it's called real estate. Uncensored has like a million and a half downloads. And, essentially made, took me from being just a, nobody that worked inside a marketing agency to speaking at industry events and being kind of micro famous in that space in about 18 months.

And so I watched that, that transformation, like with my own eyes and, and lived through that. And then that kind of led to. People asking me like, Hey, how are you doing this? How are you hosting multiple podcasts? And like, I ended up in like four different businesses. I was a partner in coaching consulting business, all this stuff.

Anyway, point being, I got sucked into being an agency owner. So that was never my intention. I was doing like three or four other things. I was going to do coaching consulting. I was going to speak in real estate. I was going to be in real estate, happy as a clam for the rest of my life. And then I got pulled into starting and launching podcasts and producing them.

And now we produce a bunch of shows and that's my sole focus. So I run the agency and about. Three to four hours a week, which leaves me the time to still do the stuff that I'm passionate about. And, you know, like, you can see on video, I'm surrounded by all the musical instruments and stuff. So I still get to make music and work on that in my off hours.

Cause I have a business that I can run and just a few hours a week. Ooh, that sounds like heaven, heaven, but it's not bad. I love, I love how. How it sort of naturally evolved, you know, out of basically being open, exploring and, and, following the path in front of you a little bit. Like, that's what it sounds like, doesn't it?

Yeah. A little bit, you know, I got off of that path quite a bit. Yeah. I mentioned that I was in a few different businesses and, and like when I came out of, so I came out of an agency that sells one thing. Pretty much to one type of person. And I saw the beauty in the simplicity in that model. And I saw how my mentor scaled that up to where they have 500 clients just paying them monthly recurring fees.

And, but when I got into that space, I got tempted and I got drawn off course because I was good enough at what I did that I started to get other opportunities and they all sounded cool. And they were all with these amazing people that I wanted to work with. And so I said yes to way too much stuff.

You know, I was in like, I was in two different coaching consulting companies. I was in a, like a content training material, production business. And then I ended up in a business to take podcasting into the financial services space. and I looked up one day and realized that like, every time I would have a meeting with my partners, I would walk away with a mile long to-do list of stuff that had to be done before the next meeting.

And they would not, and I'm like, well, this, this can't be. But what I really realized is that. I, I had made like my first huge mistake in business, which I tried to do this thing where I thought I was focusing by being in like four different things. But they were all in one industry because my idea was like, if you were any type of person and you came across me, if you bought anything, I made a cutoff of it.

That was my idea at the time of being focused. And then I just, I woke up one day and realized, this is, this is not focused selling. One thing to one type of person is focused and, So when I made that decision to kind of get back on that track and I made that my goal that's when I started to realize, okay, well that means I need to get out of this.

I need to get out of this, get out of this. And, and then I'm like, well, okay, well, if I'm going to get all out of all that stuff, like, what am I going to focus on? Well, I'm going to focus on the thing where I have a hundred percent ownership and I get a hundred percent of the reward when it goes well.

So why do I not just dive into the podcast production and make that my, my sole thing. So just having that, that goal, you know, we talked about before. We hit record, just kind of knowing where you want to end up. You don't know exactly how to get there, but just knowing where you want to end up. That's where I wanted to end up.

I wanted to have one thing to sell the one type of a person. And that helped clarify a lot. Yeah. I love, I love how I think a lot of listeners can resonate because I was giggling. It's like, Oh yeah. You know, it's like when the sort of the multi passionate. People, you know, when you love a lot of things and you're good at a lot of stuff.

So it's so tempting, you know, to take on this and take on that. And, and when you easily get excited about stuff about new projects and creating something new, but yeah. You build yourself a hamster wheel. Yes. That's exactly what it is. you know, I w I was getting, cause I, I do a fair bit of podcast interviews in different spaces and I got the opportunity to go on a podcast.

That's run by another agency owner and we were set to do a pre-interview call and she couldn't make it. So she sent her next in command and the person said like, Oh, they, you know, they weren't able to show up, you know, like she had to put out some fires to put out, you know, how it is and I'm thinking, okay, No, no, I really don't.

I don't, but there's a reason for that, which is because we're so focused on like doing one thing for one type of person, we're able to put a lot of work into. Having really good systems where we do the same things over and over again. And because of that, we're able to attract and retain really good people and they know exactly what they need to do each week.

They know exactly what numbers they're responsible to hit, and we've encountered most of those problems before and we can solve them once and for all. so like when, when are all, most of our clients podcasts, their shows launch on Thursday. When I used to wake up on a Thursday morning, that was a stress day.

Hmm. 

Right because something was always going wrong in the early days when we were doing a whole bunch of different stuff for different people. The more that I focused and narrowed down now, I barely know when it's Thursday and I wake up. I like, I have so many other calls booked. I don't even think about the client launches anymore because I know my staff has it, that only came as a result of us getting focused and super clear and doing one thing over and over again.

And I think that, People that are like multi-passionate and creative. If you never experienced what that's like to have things being done for clients that you don't have to worry about, you don't realize how much freedom and how much creativity that opens up. Whereas if you're doing all these different things, it almost it's technically creative, but you're always in panic mode. 

So it almost like shuts the creative part of your brain down. 

Oh, this is gold right there. Like that's going to be the title because actually it's funny. I was speaking to somebody on, on a, on a, on a workshop yesterday about, and she was talking about niching down and how the narrow, that niches and how like this, the more precise you can define what you do for what kind of person that, that, that actually opens up.

All the opportunities for your business and people have so much resistance and I can understand it because I was kind of like, you know, for a very long time, that idea of like, no, I don't want to like, get this goal or that goal. And, but I love how you put that at actually when you know that this is taken care of.

And not that that takes over then all of a sudden you're free to create. Ooh. Yeah. Well, I mean the book, the book wouldn't exist, right? Somebody like there was a time starting like January of last year when I stopped booking any appointments in the afternoon. And that book wouldn't exist. If I hadn't been able to do that, there's no way I could have written the book in the gaps between calls or on the evenings and weekends.

I I've got, you know, like I've got chronic fatigue and adrenal fatigue and like I've dealt with energy levels for years. I don't have 10 to 12 hours of my best work in me every day for any long stretch of time. And so I had to build the business in such a way that I wake up and I know I've got about four hours of.

Labor intensive stuff. And then I completely unplugged. And then everything else after that is optional, which means it could be a day where I spend the rest of the afternoon taking a walk on the beach. Or maybe it's a day where I spend the afternoon working on music and I completely unplugged from the business, you know, for awhile there, it was me working on the content for the book.

And I spent an, you know, 60 to 90 minutes in a Starbucks writing, writing the book. Right. But none of that would've happened if I hadn't narrowed my focus and gotten the business to the point where it ran fairly smoothly. And, and yeah, I just, I just realized that. Like when I was in that, in the panic mode, when I was on that hamster wheel of doing a whole bunch of different things for clients, I didn't have the mental and emotional space even think about music.

And there was, there was five years where I chased the dream as a pro musician. Like I, I have played the drums since I was two years old. It is in, is baked into the fabric of my being, to play music and being on the hamster wheel of business, completely shut that area of my life down for three years until I got the business straightened out.

so yeah, like I, I think there's probably a lot of creatives out there that you think you're being creative in the business and it's actually shutting down is keeping you from being creative and the things you're actually really passionate about. That's so true. That's so true. yeah. couldn't, couldn't agree more now, what I'm curious about when you left the agency, you know, who was how'd you get your very first client that was just yours?

Well, a couple of things. So, and this, this goes back to the, kind of, the idea of niching down, right? So my very first consulting client, which by the way, paid for all my living expenses and allowed me to kind of focus on growing the business without having to worry about a paycheck. That that was the first big win for me.

And that came about by just through a happenstance introduction through the agency owner I used to work for. All right. And then happened to be we're all from the same city. Right. So he was starting up a coaching consulting company. And he wanted somebody to help him market it. And I had enough of the skill set and I basically just walked in there and said like, you, you need me, right?

Like, We're going to do this. I'm going to launch your podcast. We're going to get you on interviewed on podcast. Like I knew enough about that world to kind of confidently say I could do X, Y, and Z. Well, it ends up, I ended up being an equity partner in that company and, and he's still one of my good friends to this day.

Still. We still produce this podcast. I co-hosted it for a couple of years. So number one, it was, I worked my network of personal relationships. And then the second thing, like w where it came from there is I started to host podcasts and the people that I met through networking, including on just being active on LinkedIn and booking guests for my own show, I would like in the course of those conversations, they would ask me what I did.

And I would just tell them that, yeah, it's what we basically do done for you, podcasting for thought leader, coaches type, you know, coach consultants. And this is the response that I would get. Holy cow that exists. I mean, I can just show up and hit record and not have to worry about anything else. I'm like, well, yeah, that's basically what I built for myself.

and so yeah, that, that's the response that I would get. That was that first little clue that sent me down the road of. Like, well, what, what is a clear and compelling idea for a business? What, how do you, how do you come up with like one, two sentences to describe what you do that gets that kind of reaction?

Because that was the key to everything that was where all my early clients come from. It's still where most of my clients come from is just the networking, personal relationship influence in the circles that I run in. And it's because the idea of the business itself does part of the marketing for me, so that when, like, when I meet people that are in my circles, they instantly understand what I do.

It's clear it's memorable and they, whenever they run into somebody, that's thinking about podcasts and they go, Oh, you gotta talk to Matt. Like, I'm just automatically that guy. and because the idea of the business is very clear and it's, and it's compelling to the right people. So all that to say, you know, that's, that's where my early clients came from and you can do the same thing.

Like if you, if you really do choose the right niche and you choose the right people, it's not that hard to get those initial clients. And if you get clients that are influential and affluent in your space, well, then when you do a good job for them, they're they can't shut up about you. Yeah, that's, that's so true.

And I mean, I said, I must say when, when I heard you describe that, like the moment you get that you say what you do and you get this, I need you kind of thing. You know, I've really had that happen with the tech monster book. Because when I saw I attained the tech months, people could people giggle first and then it all, I need you, you know, people get that.

Yeah, it's not, it's not even about tech fear. It's about tech frustration. It's like, all this stuff does my headache. Right. So it's not that I can't do it, but boy, you know, but people get it and it's yeah. It's, it's, it's that now I'm seeing behind you and people who just listening. Won't see that obviously, but micro famous.

Tell me how that came about because obviously the podcast is part of it. What's the other part. And how did that come about? Okay. Well, like, like as an agency owner, as like, as someone, like I wanted more ideal clients and I noticed that I was running into a lot of the same beliefs, in my, in my clients, the people that I would work with and I was constantly fighting upstream against the Gary V mentality of be everywhere.

Be everywhere, online, be everything to everyone, like never turned down and say like, you don't turn down a sale. If somebody wants to hand you a check, you figure out a way to say yes. I constantly run up against that mentality. Hmm. And what I saw as there was, it was damaging my clients because it was, it was leading them away from the very thing that would make the biggest difference in their podcasts, which is having a very, very razor-sharp clear and compelling idea for their show that cuts through the noise and gets the attention of the right people.

So them trying to like be everywhere and appeal to everyone and try to build this big audience is actually leading them away from the thing that would build them a good audience and would actually make them money. So I wrote the book to kind of like fight back and push back against all that stuff.

And basically lay out a vision where you can say, look, you don't have to be everywhere. You don't have to be every, you know, on every social media platform, you do not have to go and try tech talk, right? You do not have to, you do not have to start dancing and singing karaoke to grow your business. you don't have to be everything to everyone.

But I wanted to give people the roadmap to show them the vision of what is it like when you are famously influential just to the right people. And then you can deliver to them a message that speaks really deeply, and you can basically happily and gladly repel everyone else. And that's you mentioned that people struggle with niching down that that's one of the parts that people struggle with is look, if you want to strongly attract some people, you're going to have to be okay with strongly repelling everyone else, then you have to be okay with that.

And I wanted to give people a way to, to really take pride in that. How do you take pride in. Only serving us a focused perfect group of people for you and not worry about everyone else. Well, beat be famously influential to the right people, be micro famous, and then you won't worry about being, you know, everywhere all the time and trying to be everything to everyone.

So that's, that's kind of why I started down that path. and so the first, like third of the book. Isn't really nothing about tactics. It's nothing about podcasting. It's about the strategy of how do you decide where you want to be micro famous? Who are the right people? Who are your ideal clients? how do you make those decisions?

How do you come up with an idea that speaks really deeply to them so that when you tell people what you do, you get that wow response that you get with the tech monster whisper. And if people get ahold of that, well, then when you do get into podcasting, it actually works and it generates 10 times the revenue that you put into it.

Yeah. Yeah. That makes, that makes so much sense. And you know, the Gary V it's like, Oh God. Yeah. And when you said like, don't, you know, you can't repel or reject anybody who wants to give you a check. And actually I remember Landon Porter at the sales gorilla. He really changed. Like he changed my way of looking at this in this way.

That makes me giggle every time because he says, no, no, no, no. What you want to do is you want to be very careful who you allow to obligate you with their money.

I love it. That's exactly how I look at it too. Yeah, that's the thing. And I think it's, and I think it's, it resonated so much with me because. My first, you know, business project that, I did for many years was making flamenco dance costumes for, you know, for artists. And I didn't know that that. So I was there thinking if somebody wanted something, it was just my job to give them what they wanted.

Right. And then I ended up with a lot of clients I wouldn't have taken on if I had known, you know, this other way of looking at it. So, and it only dawned on me when I came to this like real place of burnout where the frustration that when somebody. Who you really love working with calls and wants you to send, you have to say no, because you're full with people with projects that you don't actually enjoy.

What on earth am I doing? Right. So I was lonely thinking in that. No, no, no. You, if you're in that, working in that space, It's not like a shop where you have to attend to everybody who walks in, like you choose who you want to work with and to even realize that actually yeah. That's okay. That's part of it.

Like I took me a long time to get there, so that's why this resonated so much with me. Yeah. And, and it took me a while to get there too. And to, to where now the point where like one of my friends, jokingly called me the double black diamond master of saying no to a potential client, which, which is funny because the day, the day he said that was right before I had a consultation with somebody that was a little outside of our ideal client space and it was a good reminder.

So I sent them to another agency. we all need that from time to time, we all get tempted to kind of get, get off course and go, Hmm, I could, I can, I can do both. I can do both. I can, I can, I can serve that client too, but, Yeah. Like if creativity is a really high value, you know, for you, yeah. You just have to be really careful like who you allow.

Into your life because your clients affect your creativity and you can, you can feel like you're being creative in the, in the things that you do for them. But if it then takes away from your ability to creatively build your business or creatively pursue your other passions, that in business or not, it, it shuts down that part of your brain, like we talked about.

So one of the things that I noticed with people that are really creative, that might be helpful. Cause I do this is, It's like, well, if I'm going to focus on like one type of person and I'm going to sell them, basically one thing over and over and over again, where does my, where do I scratch my creative edge?

And I think there's two places. Number one, you can scratch your creative Vich by going deeper into that one problem that you solve. Right? So, so I, I, I made a decision years ago to kind of consider myself a marketing professional, but that's a pretty broad thing, you know? I could be doing a lot of different stuff.

I could be coaching people on how to build YouTube channels for example, but I don't right because I want to stay focused on podcasting. It's a part of where I get the creative edge for podcasting is I keep going deeper and I keep peeling away the layers of the onion too. Help people uncover their idea for their podcast.

And that's where my creative, I get to scratch my creative edge. Every time I sign up a new client because I'm helping brand and launch this whole new thing. And every client's a little bit different, even if they're in the same industry. So that's one way that I get to scratch my creative bitch. And then the other is with the structure of the business itself.

Right. You can be a solo preneur. You can have a team of freelancers, you can start hiring employees, you can get an office. Like you can also scratch that creative itch just in how you build your own business and how you market yourself and how you take on more clients. So there's a bunch of ways to kind of scratch that creative itch if you're the creative type.

it doesn't have to be with working with a bunch of different types of people and selling them different types of things. Oh yeah. I love that. Yeah, because it's, I think it's most of the time it's more people can see that bit can see through that. Or if I have to do the same thing over and over, I get bored.

You know, you hear it all the time, but then they over and over again. But yeah, it's, I mean, every, every week is like every new client I take on is a little bit different, you know? and it, and it's awesome to help them launch knowing that I've done something in one space long enough to have real expertise.

you have a read the book, the business of expertise by David Baker. Nope. Okay. So he said something in there that was really good. And, and it really hit home. He said something to the effect of if you're constantly working with clients in new industries or new spaces that you don't know about.

That's fine, but just understand that you're charging your client for you to learn, because they're assuming you're already bringing that expertise. And if you don't have it, you're having to build it on the fly. You're essentially charging them for you to dabble

you're right in the center. So yeah. So if you hear things like that and you go, Oh, wow, you're right. I might like to dabble because that makes me feel good, but I'm shortchanging my clients. The more that I do that like, okay, well that, like that helps you be okay. Like be a more settled and confident and focusing on one type of client, because then you realize, okay.

Focusing on that one type of client is what allows me to see those same patterns over and over again. That's where my expertise comes from. You know, I think a lot of people that struggle with, you know, like, how am I different and what am I going to tell a client? If they ask me why they should hire me, that's a sign that you don't have really strong opinions about how things should be done because you haven't solved the same problem over and over and over and over again, like that's where those strong opinions come from.

And when he, when he pointed that out in the book, I was just like, yeah, that was, it was just confirmation that, you know, the more you focus on the right kind of people and you saw the same problem over and over again, the more valuable you are to them. Yeah. Yeah. And I love, I love how it, how you remind us or help us see that.

Well, actually there's a lot of freedom and a lot of creativity and a lot of expansion in going deeper rather than wider. You know, so it isn't boring. It's, it's just, yeah. You just, and I'm an ass. I actually really, that really resonates when I look at the, at the sewing where it was like, yeah, yeah, no.

And I actually said off the 15 years, I thought, you know, like now is when I enjoy it most. Hmm, because I'm really good at it now, but I could see a dress and I can, like, I can almost cut it without a pattern or I kind of know, like, you know, it's almost, it's, it's quick, it's effortless that, but that comes from lots of all the trial and error, the, you know, it's that learned and earned expertise that, that actually opens up a lot of, a lot of room for.

Creativity and freedom. And so, yeah, absolutely. That's fine. Well, yeah. And the thing that I didn't realize, you know, back, probably 2012, 2013, when I was just doing like more independent marketing consulting things and it was probably terrible at it. what I didn't realize. Is that like, I started off by charging low prices and attracting people that were going to pay me low prices when I did the opposite, which I didn't necessarily intend to do it this way.

I kind of stumbled onto this strategy, but working with people that were at the top of the field and charging them higher prices, it forced me to get really good really quickly. And what was funny about it is that those people that were at the top of the market, they were the most influential, there were also fairly patient.

With new things, trying new things experimenting, right. They had a high tolerance for risk. they really only needed somebody to come to them with a good idea that they, they had a vision that could see that it would work and you seem like you're competent and you seem like you're confident in what you can do.

And they'll just say, yeah. Let's try it. Let's give it a shot. I'll pay you a grand a month, two grand a month. Let's let's give it a shot and we'll see you, you know, three months later, we'll see where we're at. You know, you try selling something that's five grand or 10 grand to the average buyer online and they need a thousand testimonials and a five-year track record.

And you better have 20,000 followers on Instagram or you're nobody. And I, I like if I was to go back and slap my former self, you know, five or 10 years ago, that's what I would tell you is like, Hey, just get around, like get around the ultra successful first. And see what problems they have and offer to try to take a whack at solving them.

And I guarantee you will come across something that works really well. And all of a sudden you'll have something you can package and then take to other people. And you'll have the endorsement of really influential people that will introduce you to a bunch of people that have that same problem. Start there rather than starting at the bottom of the market and then trying to work your way up and be more expensive.

Yeah. I mean, there's, there's so much gold in there. There's there is, that whole. Idea and I've, I've fallen for it. And I learned the hard way, and I've seen it play out a million times. There seems to be that misconception, especially in the beginning when you kind of knew somewhere and you sort of know that you haven't actually earned your expertise yet that you're selling something at a lower price somehow makes it an easier sale and, or makes it an easier project.

Boy is that wrong? Like, you know, because yeah, I know I noticed that there is, a YouTube video. It's cool, like selling the invisible and I can't remember the lady's name now, but I'll find it and put it in the show notes because she talks about the psychology of why that is that people who pay more, tend to be better clients like exactly how you, you just described.

Yeah, totally are. Yeah. And I know, and I've learned just by accident because I used to have. You know, while certain prices for my say for the dresses for little kids, I didn't, I would always feel kind of almost bad because I know kids grow quickly and you know, this year the kid wants to dance club Banco next year, they want to do football.

So I was kind of thinking, God, if that was me, I wouldn't want to spend all that money on a dress that they wear once a year. Right. So I was going, you know, and so you try and make it accessible for the parents and whatever, you know, and. Boy where these parents and like, man, you know, they'd go and I'd have them literally turned the, like the biggest, the biggest compliment they'd give me was that they would turn the dress inside, out looking for some folk to complain.

And I'm like, Oh, so if you can't find anything on the outside, that means, you know, like that was kind of the biggest compliment. And then I stumbled into a project where I was called, where the deal was already done. Fabric selected. Price is discussed and something happened to the dressmaker. Right. And so they called me whether I could take over and they will almost sheepishly asking whether I was okay with whatever the price was.

And I'm like, well, okay. And I was, you know, quietly because it was kind of double that double what I would have charged. The most easy peasy, project, simple little cute dresses, parents happy, nobody calls. And I'm like, what is that video selling? The invisible really explained the psychology behind it. And I'm like, yeah.

Yeah. And you can see it everywhere. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah. I love that. I'll have to check that video out. I'll put it in. I'll take it out. I just can't remember her name now, but, it's an old video, you know, it's, it's, you know, coffee that tastes fabulous and she really goes, it's very funny, but, yeah, so.

Tell us about where people can go to find out about how they become microfiber famous. And what's on the horizon for you. Well, I'm gonna, like I love getting, you know, these types of conversations and I love being on podcasts because they're really fun. You know, it's fun to talk about this stuff and reach out and connect with different types of people.

So if anybody wants to do the same thing, that's where I would always recommend that people start. to me, that's kind of the foundational step of becoming micro famous in this new world that we live in. and so if you want to go to how to get featured. Dot com I did a class there on, on how to reach out to podcasts.

I was like how to craft a story that you can use when you reach out to podcasts that gets their attention and gets them to say yes. And so that's there, but everything else is just going to get micro, famous.com. Right now we don't have a full-blown website there. It's just the links out to like the book and stuff like that.

And the a and the agency, and just track me down. I'm on Facebook, easy to find if you just type in micro, famous. Fabulous. I love it. What's next for you? What's that? Oh, that's a good question. So mainly I think next year, I'm going to start writing a series of like smaller field guides where we go into like the strata, like different strategies and tactics to build.

thought leadership businesses, you know, coaches, consultants, speaker, author types. Those are the people that I work with. And I want to be almost like a, a journalism or a journalist of the industry and start documenting what people are doing. Some of the newer business models that are coming out and different, just different aspects of the thought leadership business as complements to the micro famous book.

And, And yeah, but basically I we're, we're just out there building the email list, reaching people, promoting the book and, And kind of building influence for the long haul. So, yeah, I don't, I don't see much changing for me, beyond, getting back into the flow of, of writing a little bit more in 2021, and then hopefully the world getting back to normal, hopefully.

Oh, thank you so much. There was just so much gold in this episode, so I'm looking forward to listening back. I really appreciate that. Well, thank you so much. I know. Speak to you again, some sounds great. Thank you.