How to Package Your Expertise into a Profitable Online Course with Jane Sagalovic, Founder of Scale Your Genius®

Anke:  Fabulous. Welcome. Welcome Jane. I'm really excited to have you here.  I'm very excited that so many people have popped in life. And then I know that there'll be a few who actually also watch the Facebook live and I probably will do it really lousy job monitoring the comments while we're talking.

But, So, yeah, we are going to be talking about how to package your expertise into a profitable online course, because that's the area of expertise of the lovely Jane Sagalovich. I hope I didn't butcher your last name.

Jane: Nope. That was perfect. And I'm so excited to be here. I have to say, you know, you, you posted this on LinkedIn and on Facebook and I've never seen such like a fun engaged group of people response I'm so, so, so excited about this.

Anke: Oh, that's lovely. That's lovely. And yeah, I just saw Kim's comments. So he actually knew you, it's such a small world. I just love it. So I'm really, really excited to have you here because I know that, well, especially with the way things are and everybody does more work online, and there's also a lot of ,you know, coaches and, you know, and, therapists and in my community and that idea of

Jane: yeah.

Anke: packaging that expertise up so that it isn't just that, you know, repeating the same kind of thing, one on one all the time, is on a lot of people's minds, but people have a lot of questions. And so I'm really, really delighted to, to have you here.

And, so yeah, I would love to start with giving you a couple of minutes to introduce yourself, to let us know, you know, obviously you already said before, I don't know whether we recorded, whether you know, where are you based and how did you come to be the founder of, Scale, Your Genius. Love that title.

Jane: Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. So, my name is Jane. I think you all know that I am in Denver, Colorado USA, where we were just chatting before we went live. We just had our first snow storm of the season, which is about a month too early. And it was a hundred Fahrenheit the day before. So it's been, it's been a little crazy, but, I'm, I'm glad that the heat waves are over at least for now.

Cause they were getting. You get a lot of control, but, yeah, I found it a ScaleIO genius about three years ago and specifically to help highly skilled experts packaged their expertise into an online course. Before that I started my career. I spent 18 years in corporate working in strategy and finance and the investment world.

And I hit that point, I don't know if, if, if a lot of the people watching have done the corporate to self-employed transition, but, you know, what happened with yeah, what happened for me was the ability and comforts were nice, but I had a really strong drive for impact and that it was just something that, you know, I kind of kept changing in corporate jobs, thinking it's somewhere out there.

And then I realized that that's just not what exists. There, so jumped ship to leave if the comforts and the paycheck and all those things that are amazing to be able to create an impact. And more importantly, for me, To see that impact on the business owners, like in their eyes, on their face, just to see how much their lives are changing.

And so I chose to, this is now six years ago, started consulting firms, specifically helping small business owners improve their businesses. So did that for four years. And then the last three focusing specifically on online programs, because I really saw. I saw the differential between, if you look at my website, I talk about on a mission to get rid of crappy online.

And I just really saw, you know, The difference between the crappy ones and the really amazing ones. And that it actually, it doesn't take more time, energy, or money to create a really good one. It just takes time understanding the process and the intentionality of it. So I was just so inspired to help.

Highly skilled experts bring their wisdom into the world in a bigger way, and really build a business of their dreams. Cause I know, you know, you mentioned the therapists, dieticians are that coaches, consultants. It could be really hard to really create that dream life in business without working too much.

I know, you know, so many times our time and money and impact are tied together and being able to unravel it so we can serve more people and make more money without working more. Is I find it to be so important to be able to keep doing it and not get burned out and, you know, not sit here dreaming of retirement and really enjoy the day to day.

So that's, that's the long version of how I got here.

Anke: That's wonderful. And, and yeah, I think most people on the call and watching can relate to that. It's and I, I, I was just like, Oh God. Yeah. You know, I, my first. Jump the corporate world was to start my sewing business. And I did exactly that. I really, you know, didn't like there was, I didn't find, or didn't look for whatever, find a way to scale that business in a way that I could maintain it without running like a crazy monkey on the hamster wheel.

So yeah. Yeah, definitely learned that one the hard way now. You've also given me the, the hook into like the kind of critical question that I wanted to ask. And so you've already, you made this very easy for me.  So what, what I wanted to ask what, so what differentiates, because we, I think we all have bought online courses and some of them, I mean, at least I've done both. I've bought them and never looked at them again and I've bought them and went through every single piece of content there, religiously and, and anything in between.

So. The question is what differentiates a crappy one from a great one.

Jane: Hmm. Yeah. So the short answer is a lot of little points along the way. So, so there's a lot to it. I'll touch specifically on, you know, what you mentioned as the difference between. Not finishing and finishing a course between starting it and falling out versus starting it and doing every single thing and continuing, because that's definitely one aspect of crappy versus not.

And the answer is actually pretty simple and it all for me is all about the onboarding process of the course. So what does that touchpoint you have with a person who's about to get, take your chorus and you set out the expectation. And you reiterate that. Why? So in your marketing process, in your sales process, you probably already, you know, you did the, I don't know if convincing us the right word, but you did the inspiring and kind of the messaging around why buying this course is so important.

And so now they did, but it's time to really go even deeper. So now they're on board now. They're like, okay, I think I want this, but it's a good time to like really dig even deeper. Why it's so important for them to now take the time because they've invested the money and that's part of it. But our time, you know, we're all here because we want to be more efficient.

So we know the value of our time. And so now we're asking them to invest their time. So it's time to go back to that inspiration again, saying, okay, now you're invested money. Why should you invest the time? so I find going back to the story aeration and then really making it super, super clear what the experience is about to be like for them.

So they know what every step is going to entail, how to approach it best, how much time it's going to take and what they can expect along the way. Because I find that when our brains, no, what's about to happen. It's much easier to take those steps forward. So some of the crappy courses will be. Not very well structured.

So you're like, okay, I just learned this. And now I learned this other thing, but what am I supposed to do with it? How does it all connect? How do I apply it? So it's creating that really intuitive and logical step by step model and really communicating that. That's what they're about to do is super, super helpful to help them.

Go through. And then final piece on this particular question is, you know, I mentioned, how much I love seeing like in my client's eyes and on their, our face is that, that the impact and the value. And so one thing that people are doing is putting out those fully autonomous online courses, where there is no interaction with the creator and yeah.

It's fine. As a, as a business model, it's out there. It's okay. I'm not going to say it's bad, but if you're able to provide some sort of person, whether one-on-one or group guidance and support, that really, really helps them. You know, if they do get stuck at some point in the process, What do they do if there's not an option for them, that course has gone on the shelf.

So being able to support them along the way I find super valuable, it doesn't create something a hundred percent passive income, a hundred percent scalable, but I find that it's totally yeah. Worth it to make it a little less scalable.

Hmm. Yeah. I'm I'm that makes perfect to me. It actually, it is very much in line with what people responded.

I don't know, a few months ago on LinkedIn, I don't know, can't remember even how the topic came up and asked, you know, like, have you ever taken a course that you did or didn't finish and what made the difference? And it was like loads of responses and it really all came down to, well, if there's no personal interaction, I'm probably gonna drop off.

Right.

It doesn't take a lot to, you know, we don't like blocks in movements, right. So if you're taking a course and you're moving forward and you come and you come across a roadblock, And there's nothing, you know, you can Google the answer, like if there's not an easy way to bust through that block, that roadblock it's, you know, especially for the lower price courses, there's not a lot of incentives.

Keep going.

Anke: Yeah. Yeah. Now, following, I mean, you really focused in on the actual experience when they're taking the course. So now what about that same question crappy versus great. When it comes to. Designing and selling it like before they, is there a sort of a differentiate or what's the differentiation before they buy?

Jane: Will you rephrase that maybe so I understand?

Anke: Well, let's see. Say your starting point was okay now they've bought the course. Right. And now we want to make sure they don't drop off. Right. So I'm now curious whether there are. Concrete or like them tips or things to keep in mind to design and position. Describe what you're offering in a way that people will actually be interested in buying it to start with.

Jane: Yeah. And, you know, the first thing I'm going to say is make it super, super congruent. I think, you know, I know I've bought courses where the description didn't really match what I got. So it doesn't a hundred percent answer, you know, what you just asked, but that's really what came to mind for me is when you're working on the marketing is like, Don't, you know, don't, don't oversell it.

Don't sugar coat it. And so one thing we do, so I take my clients through the thriving online program blueprints, which is a 90 day program. And we decide our marketing messaging and our course at the same time. So, so all the words are kind of the same, everything stays congruence. And when somebody reads the marketing messaging and they say, yes, this course is for me.

And then they buy the course. It's the same thing. It's like, it's exactly what they expected. You know what else in marketing it really, you know, for me, it really just keeps coming back to this authenticity. I'm not a huge fan of launches and time scarcity and things that aren't necessarily overly, you know, if it's real, it's real.

But I know a lot of times we put kind of our people put that fake urgency on things just so people would buy for me. I am more of the belief that I really want to be able to serve people when they need me. And I don't want to force them on my schedule so that I can make more money this month. I would love to support people whenever.

And so I don't close every once in a while, I'll have a specific group or more, the doors will close, but my core program is available for enrollments all the time, because. If you decide to grow, you want to create, you start creating your course tomorrow. I want to make sure that I'm there. And that's part of what I teach my clients too, is, you know, if you have to, if you have a group program, you have to close the door.

Cool. But consider, you know, do you want to be available for them when it's their time? so that's something in marketing that I find to be really important and goes a little bit against kind of mainstream course marketing knowledge.

Anke: Oh, okay. Of course. A hundred percent like 180 degrees on the other way.

Now the question is, how do you, is there anything you kind of

like, if you don't use the kind of okay. “doors close” urgency, because I've got courses that are on like that are evergreen and it's sitting there, but it's like, until I kind of bring that to people's attention, it's like, Oh yeah, I'll sign up for that one day. Right. So it's that, that, yeah. You know, I kind of know it's there, but yeah tomorrow, maybe the next month, and then they get distracted.

And also, I mean, mine, in that particular case, there they're sort of hobby kind of things, you know, so that it's not business building where I think there's perhaps a more natural urgency there, but,

Jane: I don't know. There can be, yeah. You know, it's okay. To that I would, you know, so I'm constantly marketing my programs.

So if you look at my social media, my emails, there's always calls to action. I'm always putting out for you, resources, webinars, things like that. Just to get those people at the right time. I would say, you know, if you want to incentivize people to do it now, I do love bonuses that have timeliness to that.

So the doors are in closing, but Hey, enroll with me by September 15th. And you can get an extra strategy call with me, or you can get something of value. So that's something that, that works. Cause it's not, it's not fake now. I think it's closing. It's like, Hey, I really, you know, I want to enroll five extra people this month, the first five that want to enroll, get this awesome free bonus.

That's not going to be available next month.

Anke: That's clever. I love that.

Jane: That are still super, like I'll still be around next or price. You know, I raise my prices all the time too. So it's like, Hey quarters coming up, I'm going to raise my prices. If you want to come in the corn price, come in today.

Yes. Oh, that's great.

Anke: That's fantastic. Yeah, it makes sense. So when it comes to like, okay, I have an idea for a program, right. So, and I do now, the question is like, well,

what I've done with my sewing related courses, it was always, I've sold them first. Right. Cause I didn't want to kind of spend the time recording videos, making a whole damn dress when, if nobody wants to watch it.

Right. So that's that's one question. Are you, do you agree with that? Would you say it's better to sell first? Or do you say well, okay. I have to have kind of my structures or my module module. At what point do you start selling people?

Jane: Excellent. Excellent question. So I separate the need and the demand into two separate components.

So when I say work with highly skilled experts, they are ones who are ready to deliver their services. So they know there's a demand. To have the problem that they help their clients solve to be solved. Now that they're solving it in a different way, but we know that there are people who pay money for their services.

So for them, I don't find validation in its true sense of the word. Very important. because we know people pay for the problem. If somebody is creating something completely new to them. I have one client with whom I'm actually not even taking in her money until we do a little bit of validation.

It's one of those concepts that sounds really good. And neither one of us feel strongly enough that there's a demand for it to really go forward. So I gave her an exercise to do some validation before. I'll even take her down any part of the process that's unique and that is some bits. It's just a super nice concept that I'm not comfortable.

You remind me until we validate for everyone who we know there's a market for. We don't create the whole course, actually I'll, I'll, I'll rephrase that. I give them the options. So what we do is we create a launch day strategy. And so launch day is the day. You know, your cart opens, you are ready to take clients in and.

That people have different, you know, there's some people who want the whole thing done. They're going to be able to sell it with more confidence. They're going to be able to feel better that once they get their clients in, all they have to do is serve those clients. And then they're not trying to serve and create at the same time.

The other group, I see the minimum you want to have done is your onboarding module, your module one, and. An outline for the rest of the course, including where all the information is coming from. So it doesn't have to be recorded. It doesn't have to be, and it doesn't have to be placed in your platform, but you want to be pretty clear how you will fill out the rest.

Because again, once you start starting clients and you're dealing with maybe some tech issues and all these things, when you're creating your course, that could just be a lot for people. So, you know, really. Understand your own brain and your work style or a time available to know what that's going to be like.

Anke: I'm giggling because I'm thinking back to my first one, I literally sold it off. Like I sold it off an email. It was like, Hey, I want to do, you know, I'm thinking of doing a course to how to sew a, whatever, you know, costume, these are the modules. Do you want it? And. Boom, boom, boom. And I basically, I think I sold 10 or something and I'm like, okay, that's enough for me to do, to do it.

But then it was like, I promise. I said to say, okay, we rolled them out weekly. And then there were moments where it's like, Oh shit, you should not have to get this module out. I'd have to get it recorded. And so, yeah, it's, it's it's yeah, everything has its, you know, Advantages, and this is quantity.

Jane: It does.

And you know, and I always say like, look at, you know, look at your schedule is your, you know, are you homeschooling your kids these days? Like what's going on in your life to where are you going to be able to create it in, in that way? And so I just want to hop back to validating really quick. And we start working on messaging and week two, because, so we know there's a need for the service.

If you're an expert, somebody has been paying for your one-on-one services. We know people are willing to pay for it. Where the disconnect could be as in the messaging. So in week two, we're really starts working on that marketing messaging, including having, you talked to your dream client avatars, to really understand how they think about the problem, how they talk about it and how they, you know, how they think about the way you're going to be delivering it in a different way.

And so you do get a lot of, and it's not a yes or no at that point. It's not a yes or no. It's just really being able to capture. Their language to use in your messaging so that it really resonates with the right people. Yeah. So that does start very early

Anke: that makes perfect sense. Now, another thing I'd love you to touch on is something that I noticed when I recently did some mentoring with Thinkific.

It's like, well, anybody who doesn't know Thinkific, it's a, it's an online course platform and the people. There was often that idea that, Ooh, I need to make the schools really valuable and they shopped so much content in there. Right. So when I'm thinking, I'm not sure whether you're doing yourself a favor, I always get the sense that especially these days with information.

So much information freely available the value of a course, isn't in the amount of information it's actually in filtering out and really condensing it to, you know, so what, what's your take on how big in terms of content and online course should be

Jane: yes, this is one of my favorite, favorite, favorite questions because there's still, especially for them.

No. especially for people, both are coming from an hourly charging model. There is our brains will have a tie between kind of amount of work and amount of time to money. And like you said, the relationships actually inverse meaning because your client's time is valuable. The less of their time you can.

No quicker, you can get them to results. The more value there is to them. So last, last, last, last, last, like I always say, what is the critical path to results? And you can add some optional things. If you feel like they'd be valuable in there, but what is the critical path to results? And when I say critical path, it's all about, so again, information is free.

Your clients can go on Google, they can go on YouTube and they can find all the information. You know, what's the right, you know, what's the good information is, you know, still a little, a little, a little gray, but it's out there. And so we create a path of action. So if this is the result you want them to take to have as a result of taking your course, this is where they are today.

What are the actions steps they need to take? What is the minimum amount of information you need to give them to enable them to take those steps? That's the information as experts. We think they need to know what we know and that's false. they need to know the why, why this is important. Like I said, in the beginning of the onboarding process, they need to be inspired to take the action you want them to take.

So the why is important in just enough of the, how to enable them to do it. So the shorter, the better, I only see these questions online is like, okay, I have a six week course, how much am I going to charge for it? Or I have an eight week course. It doesn't, it's not about the time it's about the results and being able to get there in the most efficient way possible.

Yeah. Oh, well, I'm so glad. I'm glad. So glad you say that because I think it's a, it's a trap that's easy to fall into, you know, to think. Well, I can't charge. And I think because it was also related to charging, isn't it in a way when you think, well, I want to charge whatever. And so I can't just pop their five videos.

Yeah. And the other thing that comes up here is like, you know, and, and we want, I think the other reason we want to give all this is like, you look at some of these sales pages that are like, A mile long and it's like, and you get this and you get this and you get this. And then they start listing these bonuses that are like, you know, where, where if y'all have seen where the, you know, valued ads just to get this like crazy high Nino valued at $20,000, but you can get it all for $97 today.

Like, you know, we all see the bullshit and that, and so it's, it's that over stuffing, right? Yeah. And it's like, now they're getting more and more these bonuses so they can fake kind of fake. Stuff, that value number that is still fake. It just, you know, are you going to get a few more sales? Maybe? Are those going to be your dream clients?

No,

Anke: I don't. I don't think so. And actually it's it's It's something that Ramit Sethi does really well. He's, he's got a very slick, like module structure, very logical, you know? And then every time there's bell to relatively pretty short video, you know, there's maybe some, you know, related content and then there's always one, well, if you want to dive deeper here, he's got what he's called the resource vault.

Yeah. And there he's called whole, like, you can geek out there until the, until you're blue in the face. So that he actually does give a lot of, information for those who wanted, but he is very, very precise in keeping that structure clean and not overwhelming. So that, that, yeah, absolutely.

Jane: Yeah. Yeah. And I love that model of giving more of the walnuts and also cautioning them, you know, don't like, I think.

You know, really depends on my topic. So, so with the online course creation, it's like, you, you started doing it and you're so, so, so, so, so excited. Okay. And then you start working in that except, you know, with anything new, right. That excitement kind of fades. And so I always caution people when they're down at this point where they're not as excited.

She not go down rabbit information, rabbit holes. Cause the, you know, it's like, Oh, but I'm doing stuff and I'm learning. It's like, no, no, no, you're supposed to be continuing on this path, but it's uncomfortable here. Maybe this is where the sales process, whatever for them, is it safe to dive into those rabbit holes?

And so that's part of it too, is like, don't go there unless, you know, you really need it.

Anke: Yeah, that makes, that makes perfect sense. well you already touched on the experience, but we had like Anja asks a really interesting question. And that was, for people who have been. Doing on, like in person workshops and events.

Right. so

Jane: now

Anke: what are some tips to create an experience online that is kind of impactful? So are there, and I remember Danny was the one who talked about it when he had his life event. And in three weeks you had to kind of. Bring it on the line. And there was like, Oh, actually, yeah, in the room we do talk to your neighbor.

So how do I, and Anja had some really interesting examples there where, where people actually sit on chairs in front of each other. Right. They sit on a chair and then there's like an empty chair in front of them. So they kind of role play talking to this imaginary person, you know? So where. Sometimes it's you can say, Oh yeah, you could use breakout groups.

Sometimes there is sort of something that jumps to mind, but are there any tips or resources for getting, I mean, obviously you'd have to get creative and to think about what it is you're actually trying to achieve with whatever exercise and then find a way, but is there anything that, You know, any tips you can give, go for cases like that.

Jane: Yeah. You know, it's hard. It's funny. I was just in a virtual workshop last weekend, where we did an empty chair exercise. That's funny you say that. and she just, because the other chair is empty, it was easy, easier to do cause we didn't need another person. yeah, it's really. It's understanding the complete different environments, your audiences in, you know, we would love for them to all sit here, engaged video on, but we also know the reality of them being at home.

And especially if it's on a weekend or if it's families with kids at school now they're probably going to be interrupted. So it's allowing. Allowing some grace for the experience. just really, you know, some tips would be 45 minutes. Sessions breaks every 45 minutes. We cannot have attention span much longer than that.

And that allows people to attend to their kids. Do you know what, whatever people do at home. And again, I come back expectations, letting them know exactly what's going to happen. So, you know, from 10:00 AM, 10 45, this is. you know, you will be with us, please be present. Please have your camera on. Then you'll have a 15 minute break.

So just know you'll have that time. I love physical mailings. So I love it if, if they can mail something. Yeah. So there's, you know, whether it's a workbook or I was in a virtual workshop where they just send a box of snacks and it was just the, you know, just that. Like, I think we're so disconnected from physical things these days, it just felt so good to get something in the mail.

You know, it's a handwritten note and some snacks and it was just, it really felt good. absolutely breakout rooms are important and powerful. we did, it was, Christine schlocky, I think, you know, Christine, she did, I, I think the software was called Remy or something where. Instead of like zoom breakout rooms, it was actual like little virtual tables and you can see who's at the table and you can like click on an empty chair if there's an empty chair.

So it was really cool networking.

Anke: Oh, there you go. I'm here because that was asked about that as well. How can I go kind of go drop in. Two one from one group to another. Without there you

Jane: Cool. It was like as close to lot two walking around a live room, as you can get, and maybe that's your lunch break or like, Hey, go have lunch, you know, pick a table and go have lunch.

I think Remy, but check with Christine. Yeah. I'll I'll I'll check with her a cool. Yeah. And that was a cool experience, I thought, cause it does like as much live as you can get. you know, it's like, I love it depends on your topic of course, but like a little bit of breath work, a little bit of movement, a little bit of, you know, meditation, whatever it is just to break up sitting and staring at a screen.

Oh, that's

Anke: so true. That's so true. And I mean, I guess it comes down to sort of. Somehow finding a way to bridge to connect that physical, offline and the online world. Yeah. And get creative. I find, I mean, obviously, you know, as a tech monster whisper, I'm going to have to ask you, do you have a favorite learning platform?

And is there a favorite, sort of delivery mechanism in a sense that you, if we're not talking, if we're not talking sort of a life. Interaction say there's Kareena. I'm going to stop your video. if, if I'm, I'm just thinking, sort of interactive videos, does that make

Jane: a difference

Anke: when there's like, instead of like sending them PDFs to download, you know, have videos, or then now your way you can have interactive videos where they can click on things.

And I think. You know, I would almost imagine the more I can do rather than just passively

Jane: consuming. Yeah. Yeah. So my favorites, learning platform is learn worlds. And actually for people who are watching live, they're having their summit starting next Monday. And when it's over, I'll pop the link in there

Anke: because I've, so I signed up for it and I was thinking in the, in the link, because Jane's talking there.

Yeah, I'm

Jane: talking and there, I mean, just, I I'm, I'm super honored to be talking to this, a guy Kawasaki it's Neil Patel is just some really, really brutal mine's in this space. And so learn the world does interactive video, and I'm glad you asked about this better than anything. And they do a ton of research around it.

And they're saying the engagement when there are interactive features in the video is just through the roof. And what this means is you can put little quizzes in your video. so, so, so they're not just watching, they can't walk away. They have to watch and then actually like answer question to move forward.

so I love those features. I also find it very important to present information in different modalities in video, audio and yeah. Text. So for, I am, for me personally, I audit like, if you just. Talk at me in one ear out the other, I will not catch it. I will not catch your name. I will not catch what you tell me.

I need, I need, I need, I need, so I love zoom. I got everyone's names right up here. And so for me, if it's just audio, I, I'm not going to get anything out of it. So, you know, it was that video with PowerPoint. I do text transcripts of anything that's audio or video, because I want to make sure that people can find it.

another reason I think of that, your experience. Watching a video and let's say you want to come back to a certain point to like, Oh wait, what was that concept again? Now you're scrolling through the whole video and there's no, like, you have no idea where it is in text. It's so easy to find. And I love the combination of text, so I'll do text and then I'll do audio or video where I'll go.

I'll just go deeper into concepts. I'll go on, you know, my little soap boxes and, you know, give more examples and things like that. So I say, listen to the audio and read you both. to really, especially the more complex, complicated concept for a worksheet guidance. I like to give them text and audio. So my instructions there are read the text.

So, you know, what's about to happen. Grab your worksheet and then play the audio and follow along and the audio. I see. Okay. Question number one, do you think? Yes. Okay. Press pause and answer the question. So then they don't have to look, you know, if they're looking at the worksheet, they don't have to look at another thing.

They can just listen. That's

Anke: brilliant. Ooh. This is a live like I honestly happened on like, my mind was like spongy.

Jane: Yeah. I'm giving you like all my best tips that are all just in my paid course. Seriously, this cannot, this recording can not go out.

Anke: Well, we can hide it and weekend you're going to have to kill us afterwards,

Jane: whatever, you know what?

I want everyone making a course, whether it's, you know, paying me or not. So I just think I just, my love for this business model runs, Steve

Anke: comes across, like, I just love blah. You know, he's passionate about. Yeah, that's fantastic. Well, thank you so much. I think, you know, we've sort of 22. I'd love to open it up.

If somebody, if people want to come on, you know, I'm going to turn off the recording now, and then if people want to, pop, pop up and ask something and, you know, have some comments, then I would love to give them the chance to do that.

Jane: And, and birdie put something really important in the comments.

Remember inclusivity too. I, I am in no way going to protect to be an expert, but I know just things like subtitles for video. the different modalities are for, for, for. Sensitive to hearing impaired visual. So that's yeah. That's where the different modalities are really important

Anke: too. Yeah, no, that's a great point.

Thank you. Well, well thank you so much. That was super interesting. I was like, I'm just sort of sponge one sponge. Well, thank you. And, yeah, thanks for coming.

 (Transcribed with Descript)