Passion Business Podcast – Episode 38: Laurie Holmes – Healing Relationships Through Clarity Laser Coaching

Welcome to the passion business podcast. The podcast for free spirits with the big idea who want to turn their passion into a business. I'm Anke Herrmann and I'm your host. My guest today is a very special guest. She's a force of nature. A soul with the heart o a lion. She sees you for who you really are. She's a negative label eliminator. Freedom creator. And  a hearts passion inspirator. She's an author and clarity laser coach. Welcome. Laurie Holmes. 

Anke: Hello and welcome, Lauri. I'm excited to finally have you here.

Laurie: Hi, I can't believe have we never done one of these before?

Anke: Uh, yeah, it's a crime, but we are here. We're here today. So for those people who don't know yet, who's my guest today, Laurie, let us know where in the world are you and what the heck's your business?

Well, my name is Laurie Holmes and I live in the beautiful south Carolina in the United States of America, which is on the East coast, very close to the ocean, which I never see, hardly ever.

That's the crime, that I'm that close and I never go to the beach, but I do like the weather, you know, here it is, in the winter time you were still wearing, you know, unless it's a really cold day, but our weather is much warmer than a lot of places. So I can deal with December without the snow. I want to go visit snow then I go somewhere up North, but right now can't even do that. And I live with my cat, Chloe.

She is infamous in the Facebook world or, um, putting her butt into the screen. She's flashed everyone I know, I've had a conversation with him and we are doing pretty well together I'd say. So what was the next question? I'm sorry.

The question is, you know, since we're on the passion business podcast, what's your passion business?

Laurie: Well. If you'd asked me that a few years ago, I would have been toying between being a massage therapist and a coach, but I had to give up my whole massage practice this year due to the lovely COVID pandemic. And I've now had to go like, it's kinda like when you're used to doing one thing and then all of a sudden you don't have that anymore.

And now you all of a sudden you have this other career that's kind of been like a hobby or something you've been doing part time. And now it's what your whole main thing is. And so I really had to kind of, uh, pull up my bootstraps and get very creative. And I'm called a laser coach, a clarity laser coach. But for a lot of people, they don't really understand what the laser part of it means.

And I was given that title years ago by a client who said, you go straight to the point you get right in there and you, you dig out like what happened. And, and so I said, Oh, and I kinda, it kind of stuck after that. I've been on a, um, a journey for over 10 years of becoming a coach. I started 10 years ago with an online coaching program. And in the midst of that program, I decided I wanted to be a transformative coach. And then I started, uh, learning who are the best coaches in that realm. And two names popped up. One was, uh, Michael Neill and the other one was Jamie Smart.

And now 10 years later, I've actually trained under both of them. And so it's given me a very, very deep grounding in something called the three principles of mind thought and consciousness. And in the midst of all that training my laser sessions started showing up as a way that I could have conversations with people that would really target the misunderstanding that was created in childhood innocently, that's that's showing up in the now time as a repeating pattern or repeating belief, a repeating truth about who they think they are. And it just shows up everywhere in everything. It's kind of like sticky, gooey, molasses, that's in everything. And so what my job is to kind of have them see that in a way that it no longer works.

So if you know that something doesn't work, why would you keep doing it? And so that's the curiosity that I have that people come front and center with this stuff. If you're kind of keep doing what doesn't work, well, that's on you, you know? But if, once you know that it doesn't work, isn't it more likely that it will start to kind of, uh, resolve itself on its own.

And you don't have to do anything with it. Kind of thing.

Anke: Yeah. There's, there's an awful lot  in there. So let's just go back for a second

because we'll, we'll get back to here because there's quite a few things that I want to, uh, ask about and I want you to dig in deeper, but before we get there, when you left school, what did you want to be?

Laurie: Oh, let's go back. Are we talking about coaching school?

Anke: No, no, no. Like literally when you're 16 or 18 or whatever out of school, because see the interesting thing always with, I mean, I've had a couple of people who started their business and, you know, one of them, even a coaching business right out of school, like at 21 there she was coaching people, but that's not common. So I'm curious, what was your first idea of what you'd do with your professional life?

Laurie: Well, I'll tell you exactly what it was, which now I'm really laughing inside because I am actually doing it in a different way. I wanted to be a kinder garden teacher.

Anke: Oh, that's interesting. Isn't it? Hmm.

Laurie: What's funny about that. So I think kindergarteners are a hell of a lot smarter than adults. Right, because there's a couple things that kindergarteners know that adults have forgotten and what they know is they know how to play. Yeah. Right front and center in the moment with life. And when you forgot how to play, everything becomes so serious.

So it's kind of like when I take people back into their childhood, I'm really taking them back to that kindergartener, having them remember what it was like then to be that creative and that imaginative. The only difference between the kindergartener and the adult is that a kindergartner knows it isn't  real, it's play. And the adult forgot.

Anke: That's incredible. I reminds me of, I did a post on social media, some, I don't know, quite some time ago, asking people what they wanted to be when they grow up, when they were little and how that played out. You know, and it was incredible how many people actually did the thing, but in just totally unexpected ways. I didn't know that bit about you. That's interesting because it explains a lot, doesn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. It does. You know, especially since in the laser sessions you actually do look, and it mostly what happens for people, what defines how they see the world is usually stuff that happens around that age.

Laurie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it was really funny to me now is how serious that belief, true thing that they created as a child just never seemed to completely go away. They brought it with them and it shows up everywhere. But  if you were to have a playful attitude about it, then it wouldn't mean anything, but since you don't have a playful attitude about it, that's become heavy and serious and something that looks like we need to fix and do something about.

And it's, it's just really curious how much we altered it, so much that the very same thing now looks like a problem. Then it was play.

Anke: So, what do you think, what happens to the playfulness? Why are we kind of destined to lose it with age? Why, what do you think about that?

Laurie: Why? I think it has a lot to do with the way that they perceive adults and the way that adults show up, you know, as being more serious with stuff. You know, you know, can you just picture your mom or dad getting upset about something that you were enjoying playing with?

And then all of a sudden they got mad about it. And so somehow why you got this notion about what it meant to be an adult. Yeah,

Anke: IT's funny. Actually, I never thought I, I was always like, Oh, I can't wait to be an adult because I remember my mom saying like, Oh, well you have it easy. You know, you just have to go to school, you know?

And I always thought, I think you have it easy. You come home for work and you can forget about work. I still have exams and homework to worry about. So yeah. It's, it's interesting what we make of things. Isn't it?

Laurie: That perceived reality and the truth. So it's kind of like what I work with people in the laser sessions, I look at their perceived reality and the truth about because that's where the the rubber meets the road a lot is that we carry that perceived reality with us through our whole life. And we're literally reacting to everything in our lives, through that perceived reality. And that perceived reality isn't the truth. And it isn't even happening right now either. Hmm.

Anke: And I guess if we knew it was perceived, then it wouldn't be a problem might be kind of don't know that bit, do we?

Laurie: Nope.

Nope.

Until we wake up and go, Oh, wow. Yeah. That's not helpful.

Anke: Now I'd love to hear an example of, of that what you just explained. So what's the perceived reality, you know, something that you form, somebody formed as a child and, and how that plays out and what happens when you actually eventually see through, do you have like a story of somebody, you know, obviously without sharing names or anything like a story where you could kind of illustrate how, how discovering that misunderstanding, how that actually makes, like how that plays out.

Laurie: I'm going to go back to the, one of the original people I worked with, cause his, his stands out in my mind so many times I have great conversations with people and I don't remember any of it, but this one has such an impact on me personally.

And it was one of the first ones where the laser session, just all of a sudden it was like, Holy moly, this does make sense. So I was in, I believe I was still in clarity training with you. And there was another, uh, person in our group whose name shall remain nameless, a guy that I was having a conversation with.

And funny enough, cause you and I discussed this before the recording started that I wanted to really work with both sides of a relationship so people could see. No, I don't leave the, how they see it, but how also, how their partner sees it. Because sometimes we get caught up in the misunderstanding with our partner and their world and the world that they've created as truth and real, that's not truth or real.

So in this particular set, he came to me and we were doing, um, Like I was doing what would look like a clarity session with him that was i.e. a laser session. And he came with a relationship issue and he was telling me how he had issues with women in staying in the relationship for any length of time before it would dissolve or fall apart or they'd want to leave or whatever.

And so I got real curious with him about what might've happened when he was a kid that would have brought about that misunderstanding in relationships. So when I, when I work with anyone, this is for the viewers or the listeners. Um, I usually identify, um, an area in the body that seems to be, that holds an emotional feeling.

And then I take it back to an early memory where that feeling in the body was present. So he was feeling a lot of sadness and stuff around his heart. For instance. You know, the feeling that this relationship was going to abandon or leave him. So when I worked with him, he went back to being the age of six years old and I asked him what had happened at that time.

And it was, you know, I I'm not, and let me clarify this for anybody listening or watching, I am not a  hypnotist hypnotherapist, or any of that. I don't know how to do it, it has nothing to do with hypnosis, but I swear to God in that moment, a six-year-old voice came out of his mouth. And what he said was.

Well, I'm sitting in a counselor's office and I'm about six years old, six years old. And I said, what happened? Well, what he'd explained to me was that his parents were separating and going to get a divorce. And he was sitting there playing with his toys in the counselor's office. And then all of a sudden, the counselor says to him, who would you rather live with your mom or your dad?

Now, when I heard that here, I'm supposed to be neutral. And all of a sudden I went inside my body. I literally felt inside my solar plexus area what that would be like for a child to just decide who they wanted to live with. And he was beside himself as he's sharing this with me. Hmm, getting very, very sad.

And I'm thinking, well, that's the worst question. That's what I'm thinking in my own mind. That is the worst question anyone could ask an innocent child, to put the burden and responsibility on them, to choose who they want to live with. Like the worst question you could ever ask a child. But in that moment, he felt that horrible decision.

If he decided to live with his mom, he knew that was going to hurt his dad. And if he picked his dad he knew it was going to hurt his mom. So either way, he went Can't win, can you? This was going to be a horrible no-win situation. And he carried that with him. And I forget now who he ended up with, but it was that being in that place where love looks like it's a decision. I'm going to lose a love from this one if I choose that one.

And so he couldn't make a choice. And so love in that sense, kind of died within him. And it showed up in his relationships where he couldn't commit to anyone because he was afraid if they left him you see, and all they did was leave him because he couldn't fully commit inside that relationship.

And so it was showing up everywhere. Because of this misunderstanding of where it looked like those feelings were coming from in that moment. And once he had a glimpse that the feelings inside were never coming from the counselor or his parents or anything else, or even the relationship that was ending, that they didn't have the power to cause those feelings inside of him, it was like this dam burst open and all of a sudden he had this freedom that he'd never experienced before in his life. And a few weeks later I get a message from him and he had contacted both of his parents who are still alive. And he said to me that up to that point, no one had said the words I love you in like 30 years.

And all of a sudden, when they, when he was able to share what that experience was like for him, with his parents, they all broke down and cried and shared how much they all loved each other. That was when I knew the laser sessions did something different than anyone else had ever done before. And I was onto something and I had to keep going with it because if people could see the truth of their experience in the moment when they made up something that was never true, and see that the burden that they were carrying around was not even real. And they could let go of that. The freedom in that is life changing.

Anke: And it doesn't even matter what the thing is because it always comes down to an innocently made an innocent conclusion, a wrong conclusion based of what you knew at the time when you're three or four, whatever. Right. But it's incredible to see how that shows up. In decades, decades. And I think it's probably a little bit like confirmation bias.

You know, if you kind of decided that this is how it is, you probably see it everywhere and get it confirmed everywhere. So you get to think you probably feel more right about it a few decades later than then, rather than letting go of it.

Laurie: Exactly. And what I'm even more now curious about like, super-duper curious, and I got a little taste of it with you, which we don't have to share it here.

But what I got really curious with is when people are having conflicts in their relationship, and I get real curious with them now about them seeing through the eyes of their relationship, that they did the same thing. Yeah. And you see the pattern that played out in their life and you're the perfect person to exemplify whatever it was that they believed was true.

So you're playing off each other and you're, you're, um, making your lie true. Each person plays their part. And confirming that, whatever that you think about yourself as true, it must be true because they're like the perfect person for you to have around you to continue to keep that lie going yeah. Hmm.

Anke: Um, I'm yeah, you have a good giggle out of that, but we also on like, say I look at it from, from.

But just to, to quickly fill in the listeners, we've had a session because I've had to have a thing going on. And what I found remarkable was way out of the things that I shared about myself, the other person, and the relationship, you could see the pattern a mile away. Right. So you could, and I think it's really difficult when you're emotionally involved, you know, you will Bre, uh, I don't know, you know, it's, it's, it's one of those things it's very difficult to see for yourself and, you know, I might've had glimpses, but I could never see the overall picture and how are yeah.

You know, so. It showed really, it made really visible the patterns, both of us where we're enacting, like there's one pattern over here and you could really see the way you summarize what's going on. Yeah. This has nothing to do with me, does it. So, but at the same time, my pattern just happened to be a perfect match for it.

Right. And my pattern has nothing to do with what's going on for the other person. Right. So it just happens to be that the two dynamics, the way that plays out, feed off each other, and it's like, it helps you recognize your own part in the whole thing without having a sense of guilt attached to it. Right.

Because you can see that it's just that. Oh, okay. So I'm just playing out what I picked up when I was three, you know, and the other person, they pick up what they interpreted one way or the other at some point in their lives. And it's just that the two little wheelies seem to be into locking in of all the unfortunate way in the, in the middle of there.

But you can see that neither of it is personal.

Yes.

And that's liberating because it immediately catapults you out of that. Yeah. But they said, and I said, you know, but I'm right in there. Right. Or whatever, you know, like it takes you out of all of that. And, that's liberating.

Laurie: Yeah. And you can see how that if you could, if you could see through that, then the next time that situation arises and you just shared one earlier with me that you have a completely different model. I say mindset, but your, your way of dealing with it is completely shifted. Yeah. Because you're no longer reacting to it as if that person's doing something to you. You're recognizing it as well. That's just, what's happening over there. That has nothing to do with me. And I don't have to buy into that. And it's amazing how, when you don't buy into it, that gives them the space to do whatever it was they were going to do. Anyway.

Yeah, it didn't need you. There you're just a crutch that they were going to use, so they didn't have to get their hands dirty or their feet wet. So you kind of used to step out of the way, and they've only got them to deal with it. They're going to deal with it. If we sometimes enable people to be less than they are.

And if we start to realize that they're god walking around his spiritual clothing inside, and they're perfectly capable of doing whatever it is that they need to do without us. We step aside and all of a sudden it's amazing what they can accomplish.

Hm. And actually that just reminds me, that really brings something up.

Y how would you doing is different because. Before I got onto coach training with Jamie and, and, and all of that. I had a little dip into the world of Tony Robbins kind of coach training thing. Right. And so there is this Chloe, Madanes or what her name is.  so she's the relationship thing, guru kind of. So she's the expert on relationships.

And so every time there was, um, there's a recording where there's some sort of relationship issue,

right?

Anke: Her response was always like, it always felt. Let's call it not, I mean, she didn't mean it accusing, but there was always like, well, no they didn't do anything. It's just your problem that you're seeing it like this.

And, and so if you were more understanding and, and, and so it was, I don't know, it just doesn't. So now all of a sudden, all these shit situation is kinda my fault, you know, and I'm, it's my responsibility to be even more understanding to kind of not like, it just felt like more work to do and more, and all of a sudden it didn't feel like ownership.

It felt like

Laurie: kind of

Anke: putting guilt on almost. Yeah. Or responsibility or something for something that isn't really your thing. Right. But if you see how these patterns are formed for each of us,

Laurie: right.

Anke: Then there's no, then it's it's about, Oh yeah. I can own my part without beating myself up for it. Yeah. My, because you see how it's, how it got created at the time.

You know, and then you'll, you can feel as compassion for that poor four year old who's sitting there, you know, doesn't understand what's going on. Right. And, and. That's I think that's the difference that, that allows you to own the situation and, and, and own your part in it, especially when it's between, like it's some kind of relationship where you know, that everybody can say, Oh yeah, there's always two there.

It always takes two to tango. Right. But it can really feel sort of accusing if that's not understood right. And so what you do, allowing people to see how that actually happens, how the other person got to where they're at, and how you go to being where you are and how, just the interaction of that caused the dynamic that's playing out, you know?

And then usually you can see how it also plays out elsewhere, you know, so that it doesn't have to do anything with the other person, but it's just doesn't have that heaviness of God. I screwed up. I it's like, Oh, you know, what makes me want to give that four year old me is a big, bear hug.

Right. And that's really the difference.

Laurie: Yeah. I love, I don't remember who it was and I want to think it was one of the Pransky's. It might've been, Linda talked about the fragility of being human. Hmm. And the innocence of it, because you think back, excuse me. All of our understanding that we have now was formed between the ages of zero and seven.

Everything that we learned and felt, and understood and believed was given to us between those ages, any pain we experienced, any love we experienced anything at all. And so, because we're coming in with a limited understanding to begin with, because we're starting from scratch.

Anke: Basically

Laurie: we are in a continuous creation mode of making up what we perceived from day one, we're making up what we perceived from day one. It's an illusion. You're what you've made up is unique to you. And what I made up is unique to me and everybody else has made up was unique to them. But what we made up and what is true or not necessarily.

And as I'm seeing it now, not at all the same, right. We can talk about things like color, for instance, that's the perception of color is different for everyone.

Anke: You ask my mom,

right?

Laurie: Yeah. Color sound, taste. All of our senses are all perceptions. And so if we are perceiving our world and we're deciding that that's how it is. And yet somebody else perceives it. And they're not exactly in sync with each other on how they see it. Well, now you have to have a relationship based on perception, your perception and your reality and his perception in his reality or her reality or whatever combination you have out there.

You are not seeing it the same way. Yeah. And so if you're not seeing it the same way, and you're both trying to argue your point in it. No, my way is the correct way. And your way is not, you're not going to get anywhere, but if you could wow. For the fact that neither one is right. Because the perception is an illusion, but you are doing your best with how it looks to you in the moment to make the best decision you can, based on your own personal understanding.

Then you're literally living in separate realities. While cohabitating in the same general space.

Anke: So

Laurie: you're never, ever going to see things exactly the same.

Anke: Which is a good thing.

So now if somebody has a relationship they're struggling with, and they go, Oh boy, I don't know. And it can be any relationship, like where would they need to go to get a taste of your magic?

Laurie: Reach out to me so we can have a conversation.

Anke: Okay. Okay. Do you want to say the name of your website?

So that people can find you,

It's

Laurie: pretty simple. It's Laurie homes.com. L a U R I E H O L M E s.com. I'm on Facebook and a whole bunch of groups.

Anke: Yeah. I mean, I just want you to say it because I'll obviously put it in the show notes, but you know, we, we know if you listen to a podcast, you have it all in the car while you're out with the dog.

So people just listening. So it's helpful

Laurie: to just say it.

Anke: So

Laurie: offer a conversation that way. There's no obligation at the end of it. If you just want to go on your Merry way, you got something out of it and that's that. And we may meet on Facebook, but if you really see something there that you'd like to explore a little bit deeper, um, then I can absolutely work with you and I'll let you know how that would go going forward.

How that would look. But my. What I would love to do at some point is really work with the whole family. You know, if you can get a family dynamic so you can see your family very clearly, you can catch yourself if you're a young mom or dad, because your children are young, you can catch yourself. These children are literally believing everything they hear and they're making it real.

So if, if you're having a bad day and your crap's coming out of your mouth, your child is now picking up that crap and believing that's the truth. So it really gets you front and center with how are you communicating? Yeah, who is showing up when you're having a conversation with your child? What are you teaching your child unwittingly?

They're now seeing as a truth, just because you were having an off day and you were getting upset about something totally inconsequential that didn't have anything to do with them. And yet they took it on, like it was their responsibility and their fault. So it really changes the whole dynamic. Of communication.

That's when communication seems personal, that's when people are making up shit

Anke: Now that's a perfect landing place. Yep. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming. I think we might actually have to repeat this at some point, because obviously there's so much more that we can dive into, but I think you've probably gotten a taste of it or, or, um, you know, a glimpse of, of what, what Lauri is, is offering.

So yeah. Get in touch with her, check her out. And if you have any questions, you know, reach out to her, reach out to me and, um, I'll, she'll see you again next

Laurie: time. Thank you very much. Bye everybody.

 

 Welcome to the passion business podcast. The podcast for free spirits with a big idea who want to turn their passion into a business? I'm Anke Herrmann and I'm your host.

My guest today is a marketing agency founder, podcaster. Musician. He runs a podcast launch and production agency based in San Diego and has an international team that helps business coaches, consultants, and thought leaders use done for you podcasting to attract an audience and become micro famous. He's the author of micro famous and currently hosts the micro famous podcast.  Welcome. Matt Johnson.  

Hello and welcome Matt. I'm excited to have you here. 

Anke, I'm so excited to be here.

Fabulous. Well, let's just dive straight in. Let, why don't you let people know where you based and where you're from and what's your business. Okay, well, based in San Diego, although I'm not originally from here, I'm from the Midwest and, in the States and, from the land of cold and snow.

And so I'm very much enjoying living out in San Diego, but, basically what I do is I help thought leaders launch and produce podcasts. So we work with a lot of business coaches and consultants and speaker, author types. And, but five years ago, I was just some dude working in the marketing agency, working for somebody else.

and he had the, the idea to kind of promote me into business development. And his idea was. We're going to do all these Google Hangouts with these people that we have, you know, strategic relationships with. And so I started hosting these live video events with big people in the real estate space, because that's where most of the clients were of that agency.

And I got a chance to just hang out with these people and ask them good questions. And it turns out my background from low many years ago, back in real estate came in handy because I had read all the books and I knew who the coaches were and stuff like that. So I was just able to ask good questions. So those, those Google Hangouts went well to the point where one of the people I was co-hosting them with just called me up one day and said, Hey, man, I'd love to start a podcast.

And it's funny because, because I was thinking about pitching him the same idea. I was going to call him like the next week. So it was good timing. And that show ended up doing really well. I still co-host that to this day, it's called real estate. Uncensored has like a million and a half downloads. And, essentially made, took me from being just a, nobody that worked inside a marketing agency to speaking at industry events and being kind of micro famous in that space in about 18 months.

And so I watched that, that transformation, like with my own eyes and, and lived through that. And then that kind of led to. People asking me like, Hey, how are you doing this? How are you hosting multiple podcasts? And like, I ended up in like four different businesses. I was a partner in coaching consulting business, all this stuff.

Anyway, point being, I got sucked into being an agency owner. So that was never my intention. I was doing like three or four other things. I was going to do coaching consulting. I was going to speak in real estate. I was going to be in real estate, happy as a clam for the rest of my life. And then I got pulled into starting and launching podcasts and producing them.

And now we produce a bunch of shows and that's my sole focus. So I run the agency and about. Three to four hours a week, which leaves me the time to still do the stuff that I'm passionate about. And, you know, like, you can see on video, I'm surrounded by all the musical instruments and stuff. So I still get to make music and work on that in my off hours.

Cause I have a business that I can run and just a few hours a week. Ooh, that sounds like heaven, heaven, but it's not bad. I love, I love how. How it sort of naturally evolved, you know, out of basically being open, exploring and, and, following the path in front of you a little bit. Like, that's what it sounds like, doesn't it?

Yeah. A little bit, you know, I got off of that path quite a bit. Yeah. I mentioned that I was in a few different businesses and, and like when I came out of, so I came out of an agency that sells one thing. Pretty much to one type of person. And I saw the beauty in the simplicity in that model. And I saw how my mentor scaled that up to where they have 500 clients just paying them monthly recurring fees.

And, but when I got into that space, I got tempted and I got drawn off course because I was good enough at what I did that I started to get other opportunities and they all sounded cool. And they were all with these amazing people that I wanted to work with. And so I said yes to way too much stuff.

You know, I was in like, I was in two different coaching consulting companies. I was in a, like a content training material, production business. And then I ended up in a business to take podcasting into the financial services space. and I looked up one day and realized that like, every time I would have a meeting with my partners, I would walk away with a mile long to-do list of stuff that had to be done before the next meeting.

And they would not, and I'm like, well, this, this can't be. But what I really realized is that. I, I had made like my first huge mistake in business, which I tried to do this thing where I thought I was focusing by being in like four different things. But they were all in one industry because my idea was like, if you were any type of person and you came across me, if you bought anything, I made a cutoff of it.

That was my idea at the time of being focused. And then I just, I woke up one day and realized, this is, this is not focused selling. One thing to one type of person is focused and, So when I made that decision to kind of get back on that track and I made that my goal that's when I started to realize, okay, well that means I need to get out of this.

I need to get out of this, get out of this. And, and then I'm like, well, okay, well, if I'm going to get all out of all that stuff, like, what am I going to focus on? Well, I'm going to focus on the thing where I have a hundred percent ownership and I get a hundred percent of the reward when it goes well.

So why do I not just dive into the podcast production and make that my, my sole thing. So just having that, that goal, you know, we talked about before. We hit record, just kind of knowing where you want to end up. You don't know exactly how to get there, but just knowing where you want to end up. That's where I wanted to end up.

I wanted to have one thing to sell the one type of a person. And that helped clarify a lot. Yeah. I love, I love how I think a lot of listeners can resonate because I was giggling. It's like, Oh yeah. You know, it's like when the sort of the multi passionate. People, you know, when you love a lot of things and you're good at a lot of stuff.

So it's so tempting, you know, to take on this and take on that. And, and when you easily get excited about stuff about new projects and creating something new, but yeah. You build yourself a hamster wheel. Yes. That's exactly what it is. you know, I w I was getting, cause I, I do a fair bit of podcast interviews in different spaces and I got the opportunity to go on a podcast.

That's run by another agency owner and we were set to do a pre-interview call and she couldn't make it. So she sent her next in command and the person said like, Oh, they, you know, they weren't able to show up, you know, like she had to put out some fires to put out, you know, how it is and I'm thinking, okay, No, no, I really don't.

I don't, but there's a reason for that, which is because we're so focused on like doing one thing for one type of person, we're able to put a lot of work into. Having really good systems where we do the same things over and over again. And because of that, we're able to attract and retain really good people and they know exactly what they need to do each week.

They know exactly what numbers they're responsible to hit, and we've encountered most of those problems before and we can solve them once and for all. so like when, when are all, most of our clients podcasts, their shows launch on Thursday. When I used to wake up on a Thursday morning, that was a stress day.

Hmm. 

Right because something was always going wrong in the early days when we were doing a whole bunch of different stuff for different people. The more that I focused and narrowed down now, I barely know when it's Thursday and I wake up. I like, I have so many other calls booked. I don't even think about the client launches anymore because I know my staff has it, that only came as a result of us getting focused and super clear and doing one thing over and over again.

And I think that, People that are like multi-passionate and creative. If you never experienced what that's like to have things being done for clients that you don't have to worry about, you don't realize how much freedom and how much creativity that opens up. Whereas if you're doing all these different things, it almost it's technically creative, but you're always in panic mode. 

So it almost like shuts the creative part of your brain down. 

Oh, this is gold right there. Like that's going to be the title because actually it's funny. I was speaking to somebody on, on a, on a, on a workshop yesterday about, and she was talking about niching down and how the narrow, that niches and how like this, the more precise you can define what you do for what kind of person that, that, that actually opens up.

All the opportunities for your business and people have so much resistance and I can understand it because I was kind of like, you know, for a very long time, that idea of like, no, I don't want to like, get this goal or that goal. And, but I love how you put that at actually when you know that this is taken care of.

And not that that takes over then all of a sudden you're free to create. Ooh. Yeah. Well, I mean the book, the book wouldn't exist, right? Somebody like there was a time starting like January of last year when I stopped booking any appointments in the afternoon. And that book wouldn't exist. If I hadn't been able to do that, there's no way I could have written the book in the gaps between calls or on the evenings and weekends.

I I've got, you know, like I've got chronic fatigue and adrenal fatigue and like I've dealt with energy levels for years. I don't have 10 to 12 hours of my best work in me every day for any long stretch of time. And so I had to build the business in such a way that I wake up and I know I've got about four hours of.

Labor intensive stuff. And then I completely unplugged. And then everything else after that is optional, which means it could be a day where I spend the rest of the afternoon taking a walk on the beach. Or maybe it's a day where I spend the afternoon working on music and I completely unplugged from the business, you know, for awhile there, it was me working on the content for the book.

And I spent an, you know, 60 to 90 minutes in a Starbucks writing, writing the book. Right. But none of that would've happened if I hadn't narrowed my focus and gotten the business to the point where it ran fairly smoothly. And, and yeah, I just, I just realized that. Like when I was in that, in the panic mode, when I was on that hamster wheel of doing a whole bunch of different things for clients, I didn't have the mental and emotional space even think about music.

And there was, there was five years where I chased the dream as a pro musician. Like I, I have played the drums since I was two years old. It is in, is baked into the fabric of my being, to play music and being on the hamster wheel of business, completely shut that area of my life down for three years until I got the business straightened out.

so yeah, like I, I think there's probably a lot of creatives out there that you think you're being creative in the business and it's actually shutting down is keeping you from being creative and the things you're actually really passionate about. That's so true. That's so true. yeah. couldn't, couldn't agree more now, what I'm curious about when you left the agency, you know, who was how'd you get your very first client that was just yours?

Well, a couple of things. So, and this, this goes back to the, kind of, the idea of niching down, right? So my very first consulting client, which by the way, paid for all my living expenses and allowed me to kind of focus on growing the business without having to worry about a paycheck. That that was the first big win for me.

And that came about by just through a happenstance introduction through the agency owner I used to work for. All right. And then happened to be we're all from the same city. Right. So he was starting up a coaching consulting company. And he wanted somebody to help him market it. And I had enough of the skill set and I basically just walked in there and said like, you, you need me, right?

Like, We're going to do this. I'm going to launch your podcast. We're going to get you on interviewed on podcast. Like I knew enough about that world to kind of confidently say I could do X, Y, and Z. Well, it ends up, I ended up being an equity partner in that company and, and he's still one of my good friends to this day.

Still. We still produce this podcast. I co-hosted it for a couple of years. So number one, it was, I worked my network of personal relationships. And then the second thing, like w where it came from there is I started to host podcasts and the people that I met through networking, including on just being active on LinkedIn and booking guests for my own show, I would like in the course of those conversations, they would ask me what I did.

And I would just tell them that, yeah, it's what we basically do done for you, podcasting for thought leader, coaches type, you know, coach consultants. And this is the response that I would get. Holy cow that exists. I mean, I can just show up and hit record and not have to worry about anything else. I'm like, well, yeah, that's basically what I built for myself.

and so yeah, that, that's the response that I would get. That was that first little clue that sent me down the road of. Like, well, what, what is a clear and compelling idea for a business? What, how do you, how do you come up with like one, two sentences to describe what you do that gets that kind of reaction?

Because that was the key to everything that was where all my early clients come from. It's still where most of my clients come from is just the networking, personal relationship influence in the circles that I run in. And it's because the idea of the business itself does part of the marketing for me, so that when, like, when I meet people that are in my circles, they instantly understand what I do.

It's clear it's memorable and they, whenever they run into somebody, that's thinking about podcasts and they go, Oh, you gotta talk to Matt. Like, I'm just automatically that guy. and because the idea of the business is very clear and it's, and it's compelling to the right people. So all that to say, you know, that's, that's where my early clients came from and you can do the same thing.

Like if you, if you really do choose the right niche and you choose the right people, it's not that hard to get those initial clients. And if you get clients that are influential and affluent in your space, well, then when you do a good job for them, they're they can't shut up about you. Yeah, that's, that's so true.

And I mean, I said, I must say when, when I heard you describe that, like the moment you get that you say what you do and you get this, I need you kind of thing. You know, I've really had that happen with the tech monster book. Because when I saw I attained the tech months, people could people giggle first and then it all, I need you, you know, people get that.

Yeah, it's not, it's not even about tech fear. It's about tech frustration. It's like, all this stuff does my headache. Right. So it's not that I can't do it, but boy, you know, but people get it and it's yeah. It's, it's, it's that now I'm seeing behind you and people who just listening. Won't see that obviously, but micro famous.

Tell me how that came about because obviously the podcast is part of it. What's the other part. And how did that come about? Okay. Well, like, like as an agency owner, as like, as someone, like I wanted more ideal clients and I noticed that I was running into a lot of the same beliefs, in my, in my clients, the people that I would work with and I was constantly fighting upstream against the Gary V mentality of be everywhere.

Be everywhere, online, be everything to everyone, like never turned down and say like, you don't turn down a sale. If somebody wants to hand you a check, you figure out a way to say yes. I constantly run up against that mentality. Hmm. And what I saw as there was, it was damaging my clients because it was, it was leading them away from the very thing that would make the biggest difference in their podcasts, which is having a very, very razor-sharp clear and compelling idea for their show that cuts through the noise and gets the attention of the right people.

So them trying to like be everywhere and appeal to everyone and try to build this big audience is actually leading them away from the thing that would build them a good audience and would actually make them money. So I wrote the book to kind of like fight back and push back against all that stuff.

And basically lay out a vision where you can say, look, you don't have to be everywhere. You don't have to be every, you know, on every social media platform, you do not have to go and try tech talk, right? You do not have to, you do not have to start dancing and singing karaoke to grow your business. you don't have to be everything to everyone.

But I wanted to give people the roadmap to show them the vision of what is it like when you are famously influential just to the right people. And then you can deliver to them a message that speaks really deeply, and you can basically happily and gladly repel everyone else. And that's you mentioned that people struggle with niching down that that's one of the parts that people struggle with is look, if you want to strongly attract some people, you're going to have to be okay with strongly repelling everyone else, then you have to be okay with that.

And I wanted to give people a way to, to really take pride in that. How do you take pride in. Only serving us a focused perfect group of people for you and not worry about everyone else. Well, beat be famously influential to the right people, be micro famous, and then you won't worry about being, you know, everywhere all the time and trying to be everything to everyone.

So that's, that's kind of why I started down that path. and so the first, like third of the book. Isn't really nothing about tactics. It's nothing about podcasting. It's about the strategy of how do you decide where you want to be micro famous? Who are the right people? Who are your ideal clients? how do you make those decisions?

How do you come up with an idea that speaks really deeply to them so that when you tell people what you do, you get that wow response that you get with the tech monster whisper. And if people get ahold of that, well, then when you do get into podcasting, it actually works and it generates 10 times the revenue that you put into it.

Yeah. Yeah. That makes, that makes so much sense. And you know, the Gary V it's like, Oh God. Yeah. And when you said like, don't, you know, you can't repel or reject anybody who wants to give you a check. And actually I remember Landon Porter at the sales gorilla. He really changed. Like he changed my way of looking at this in this way.

That makes me giggle every time because he says, no, no, no, no. What you want to do is you want to be very careful who you allow to obligate you with their money.

I love it. That's exactly how I look at it too. Yeah, that's the thing. And I think it's, and I think it's, it resonated so much with me because. My first, you know, business project that, I did for many years was making flamenco dance costumes for, you know, for artists. And I didn't know that that. So I was there thinking if somebody wanted something, it was just my job to give them what they wanted.

Right. And then I ended up with a lot of clients I wouldn't have taken on if I had known, you know, this other way of looking at it. So, and it only dawned on me when I came to this like real place of burnout where the frustration that when somebody. Who you really love working with calls and wants you to send, you have to say no, because you're full with people with projects that you don't actually enjoy.

What on earth am I doing? Right. So I was lonely thinking in that. No, no, no. You, if you're in that, working in that space, It's not like a shop where you have to attend to everybody who walks in, like you choose who you want to work with and to even realize that actually yeah. That's okay. That's part of it.

Like I took me a long time to get there, so that's why this resonated so much with me. Yeah. And, and it took me a while to get there too. And to, to where now the point where like one of my friends, jokingly called me the double black diamond master of saying no to a potential client, which, which is funny because the day, the day he said that was right before I had a consultation with somebody that was a little outside of our ideal client space and it was a good reminder.

So I sent them to another agency. we all need that from time to time, we all get tempted to kind of get, get off course and go, Hmm, I could, I can, I can do both. I can do both. I can, I can, I can serve that client too, but, Yeah. Like if creativity is a really high value, you know, for you, yeah. You just have to be really careful like who you allow.

Into your life because your clients affect your creativity and you can, you can feel like you're being creative in the, in the things that you do for them. But if it then takes away from your ability to creatively build your business or creatively pursue your other passions, that in business or not, it, it shuts down that part of your brain, like we talked about.

So one of the things that I noticed with people that are really creative, that might be helpful. Cause I do this is, It's like, well, if I'm going to focus on like one type of person and I'm going to sell them, basically one thing over and over and over again, where does my, where do I scratch my creative edge?

And I think there's two places. Number one, you can scratch your creative Vich by going deeper into that one problem that you solve. Right? So, so I, I, I made a decision years ago to kind of consider myself a marketing professional, but that's a pretty broad thing, you know? I could be doing a lot of different stuff.

I could be coaching people on how to build YouTube channels for example, but I don't right because I want to stay focused on podcasting. It's a part of where I get the creative edge for podcasting is I keep going deeper and I keep peeling away the layers of the onion too. Help people uncover their idea for their podcast.

And that's where my creative, I get to scratch my creative edge. Every time I sign up a new client because I'm helping brand and launch this whole new thing. And every client's a little bit different, even if they're in the same industry. So that's one way that I get to scratch my creative bitch. And then the other is with the structure of the business itself.

Right. You can be a solo preneur. You can have a team of freelancers, you can start hiring employees, you can get an office. Like you can also scratch that creative itch just in how you build your own business and how you market yourself and how you take on more clients. So there's a bunch of ways to kind of scratch that creative itch if you're the creative type.

it doesn't have to be with working with a bunch of different types of people and selling them different types of things. Oh yeah. I love that. Yeah, because it's, I think it's most of the time it's more people can see that bit can see through that. Or if I have to do the same thing over and over, I get bored.

You know, you hear it all the time, but then they over and over again. But yeah, it's, I mean, every, every week is like every new client I take on is a little bit different, you know? and it, and it's awesome to help them launch knowing that I've done something in one space long enough to have real expertise.

you have a read the book, the business of expertise by David Baker. Nope. Okay. So he said something in there that was really good. And, and it really hit home. He said something to the effect of if you're constantly working with clients in new industries or new spaces that you don't know about.

That's fine, but just understand that you're charging your client for you to learn, because they're assuming you're already bringing that expertise. And if you don't have it, you're having to build it on the fly. You're essentially charging them for you to dabble

you're right in the center. So yeah. So if you hear things like that and you go, Oh, wow, you're right. I might like to dabble because that makes me feel good, but I'm shortchanging my clients. The more that I do that like, okay, well that, like that helps you be okay. Like be a more settled and confident and focusing on one type of client, because then you realize, okay.

Focusing on that one type of client is what allows me to see those same patterns over and over again. That's where my expertise comes from. You know, I think a lot of people that struggle with, you know, like, how am I different and what am I going to tell a client? If they ask me why they should hire me, that's a sign that you don't have really strong opinions about how things should be done because you haven't solved the same problem over and over and over and over again, like that's where those strong opinions come from.

And when he, when he pointed that out in the book, I was just like, yeah, that was, it was just confirmation that, you know, the more you focus on the right kind of people and you saw the same problem over and over again, the more valuable you are to them. Yeah. Yeah. And I love, I love how it, how you remind us or help us see that.

Well, actually there's a lot of freedom and a lot of creativity and a lot of expansion in going deeper rather than wider. You know, so it isn't boring. It's, it's just, yeah. You just, and I'm an ass. I actually really, that really resonates when I look at the, at the sewing where it was like, yeah, yeah, no.

And I actually said off the 15 years, I thought, you know, like now is when I enjoy it most. Hmm, because I'm really good at it now, but I could see a dress and I can, like, I can almost cut it without a pattern or I kind of know, like, you know, it's almost, it's, it's quick, it's effortless that, but that comes from lots of all the trial and error, the, you know, it's that learned and earned expertise that, that actually opens up a lot of, a lot of room for.

Creativity and freedom. And so, yeah, absolutely. That's fine. Well, yeah. And the thing that I didn't realize, you know, back, probably 2012, 2013, when I was just doing like more independent marketing consulting things and it was probably terrible at it. what I didn't realize. Is that like, I started off by charging low prices and attracting people that were going to pay me low prices when I did the opposite, which I didn't necessarily intend to do it this way.

I kind of stumbled onto this strategy, but working with people that were at the top of the field and charging them higher prices, it forced me to get really good really quickly. And what was funny about it is that those people that were at the top of the market, they were the most influential, there were also fairly patient.

With new things, trying new things experimenting, right. They had a high tolerance for risk. they really only needed somebody to come to them with a good idea that they, they had a vision that could see that it would work and you seem like you're competent and you seem like you're confident in what you can do.

And they'll just say, yeah. Let's try it. Let's give it a shot. I'll pay you a grand a month, two grand a month. Let's let's give it a shot and we'll see you, you know, three months later, we'll see where we're at. You know, you try selling something that's five grand or 10 grand to the average buyer online and they need a thousand testimonials and a five-year track record.

And you better have 20,000 followers on Instagram or you're nobody. And I, I like if I was to go back and slap my former self, you know, five or 10 years ago, that's what I would tell you is like, Hey, just get around, like get around the ultra successful first. And see what problems they have and offer to try to take a whack at solving them.

And I guarantee you will come across something that works really well. And all of a sudden you'll have something you can package and then take to other people. And you'll have the endorsement of really influential people that will introduce you to a bunch of people that have that same problem. Start there rather than starting at the bottom of the market and then trying to work your way up and be more expensive.

Yeah. I mean, there's, there's so much gold in there. There's there is, that whole. Idea and I've, I've fallen for it. And I learned the hard way, and I've seen it play out a million times. There seems to be that misconception, especially in the beginning when you kind of knew somewhere and you sort of know that you haven't actually earned your expertise yet that you're selling something at a lower price somehow makes it an easier sale and, or makes it an easier project.

Boy is that wrong? Like, you know, because yeah, I know I noticed that there is, a YouTube video. It's cool, like selling the invisible and I can't remember the lady's name now, but I'll find it and put it in the show notes because she talks about the psychology of why that is that people who pay more, tend to be better clients like exactly how you, you just described.

Yeah, totally are. Yeah. And I know, and I've learned just by accident because I used to have. You know, while certain prices for my say for the dresses for little kids, I didn't, I would always feel kind of almost bad because I know kids grow quickly and you know, this year the kid wants to dance club Banco next year, they want to do football.

So I was kind of thinking, God, if that was me, I wouldn't want to spend all that money on a dress that they wear once a year. Right. So I was going, you know, and so you try and make it accessible for the parents and whatever, you know, and. Boy where these parents and like, man, you know, they'd go and I'd have them literally turned the, like the biggest, the biggest compliment they'd give me was that they would turn the dress inside, out looking for some folk to complain.

And I'm like, Oh, so if you can't find anything on the outside, that means, you know, like that was kind of the biggest compliment. And then I stumbled into a project where I was called, where the deal was already done. Fabric selected. Price is discussed and something happened to the dressmaker. Right. And so they called me whether I could take over and they will almost sheepishly asking whether I was okay with whatever the price was.

And I'm like, well, okay. And I was, you know, quietly because it was kind of double that double what I would have charged. The most easy peasy, project, simple little cute dresses, parents happy, nobody calls. And I'm like, what is that video selling? The invisible really explained the psychology behind it. And I'm like, yeah.

Yeah. And you can see it everywhere. Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah. I love that. I'll have to check that video out. I'll put it in. I'll take it out. I just can't remember her name now, but, it's an old video, you know, it's, it's, you know, coffee that tastes fabulous and she really goes, it's very funny, but, yeah, so.

Tell us about where people can go to find out about how they become microfiber famous. And what's on the horizon for you. Well, I'm gonna, like I love getting, you know, these types of conversations and I love being on podcasts because they're really fun. You know, it's fun to talk about this stuff and reach out and connect with different types of people.

So if anybody wants to do the same thing, that's where I would always recommend that people start. to me, that's kind of the foundational step of becoming micro famous in this new world that we live in. and so if you want to go to how to get featured. Dot com I did a class there on, on how to reach out to podcasts.

I was like how to craft a story that you can use when you reach out to podcasts that gets their attention and gets them to say yes. And so that's there, but everything else is just going to get micro, famous.com. Right now we don't have a full-blown website there. It's just the links out to like the book and stuff like that.

And the a and the agency, and just track me down. I'm on Facebook, easy to find if you just type in micro, famous. Fabulous. I love it. What's next for you? What's that? Oh, that's a good question. So mainly I think next year, I'm going to start writing a series of like smaller field guides where we go into like the strata, like different strategies and tactics to build.

thought leadership businesses, you know, coaches, consultants, speaker, author types. Those are the people that I work with. And I want to be almost like a, a journalism or a journalist of the industry and start documenting what people are doing. Some of the newer business models that are coming out and different, just different aspects of the thought leadership business as complements to the micro famous book.

And, And yeah, but basically I we're, we're just out there building the email list, reaching people, promoting the book and, And kind of building influence for the long haul. So, yeah, I don't, I don't see much changing for me, beyond, getting back into the flow of, of writing a little bit more in 2021, and then hopefully the world getting back to normal, hopefully.

Oh, thank you so much. There was just so much gold in this episode, so I'm looking forward to listening back. I really appreciate that. Well, thank you so much. I know. Speak to you again, some sounds great. Thank you.